Brakes , What works ....... Really works

Author Topic: Brakes , What works ....... Really works  (Read 4449 times)

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Brakes , What works ....... Really works
« on: September 01, 2008 - 09:41:57 PM »
so what is the consensus on the best brake Pkg out there
 looking at upgrading the Charger brakes , I have driven a few 4 wheel disc Mercedes & I love the feel of the brakes , the grab effortlessly & haul the car to a stop Quick , I have tried the Wilwood brakes that fit inside the 15 " wheels & they do not seen to be an improvement over the stock 10.7" system , looking at going to 17 or 18" wheels to accomadate bigger brakes which will obviously help
« Last Edit: September 02, 2008 - 12:47:25 PM by Chryco Psycho »

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Offline thedodgeboys

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Re: Brakes What works ....... Really works
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2008 - 09:53:18 PM »
I have 12" rotors with wildwood calipers on my car and the 10" in the back with hydaboost I am told they will stop but I don’t know as of yet.

Riley Motorsports seems to like em.  :2cents:

I think IMNCARN82 has BAER's on his car and likes to drive it hard.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2008 - 09:57:45 PM by thedodgeboys »
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Offline 71chally416

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Re: Brakes What works ....... Really works
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2008 - 09:59:22 PM »
Got the Willwood conversion kit on mine. Don't really know if they're the hot setup for road racing or not, but they stop my car fine and I dropped a bunch of weight in the process. I didn't really want to add weight with one of the others I looked at cause I'm a 1/4 mile guy.
 

 
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Offline 422STROKER

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Re: Brakes What works ....... Really works
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2008 - 10:05:35 PM »
Maybe try the Dr Diff f+r set-up?  Pretty reasonable on $$$ too.  He advertises on Moparts, I'm leaning that way on a future project.

IIRC they ar 13" f and 13" r available  even a 14" front too.

It was like 800 for the 13" f and between 5-700 for the rears.

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Offline Changin Gears

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Re: Brakes What works ....... Really works
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2008 - 10:11:13 PM »
Do the Wilwood calipers have the dust boots or is it not an issue if not driven in 'harsh' envirements?


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Offline GoodysGotaCuda

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Re: Brakes What works ....... Really works
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2008 - 10:22:00 PM »
baers with hydroboost stop my dad's challenger very well
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Offline BIGSHCLUNK

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Re: Brakes What works ....... Really works
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2008 - 10:25:35 PM »
have had my SSBC's for 2 years now.....  :2thumbs:
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Offline 71chally416

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Re: Brakes What works ....... Really works
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2008 - 11:29:56 PM »
Do the Wilwood calipers have the dust boots or is it not an issue if not driven in 'harsh' envirements?

What are dust boots?  It's not driven in the rain if that's what you mean.
And I paid like $450 for mine when I got them a few years back.   

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Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Brakes What works ....... Really works
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2008 - 12:22:31 AM »
 do not have power steering , I would have to add the pump just for the brakes alone
 I guess what I am trying to figure otu is how to get the feel of Porsche or Merc brakes where the car wants to stop very easily
 obviously bigger diameter will help along with cross dilling & grooving the rotor  , but sinlge piston / 4 piston / 6 piston , or does it matter
 I kinda want to do this once not spend the $$ 4-5 times trying stuff to get the feel I want

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Offline autoxcuda

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Re: Brakes What works ....... Really works
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2008 - 01:59:43 AM »
do not have power steering , I would have to add the pump just for the brakes alone
 I guess what I am trying to figure otu is how to get the feel of Porsche or Merc brakes where the car wants to stop very easily
 obviously bigger diameter will help along with cross dilling & grooving the rotor  , but sinlge piston / 4 piston / 6 piston , or does it matter
 I kinda want to do this once not spend the $$ 4-5 times trying stuff to get the feel I want

The problem is the "feel" is the entire package. How much the front dives and the rear jacks up effects the tire loading and availible grip each tires' contact patch has to give.

Good shocks, stiffer front springs, lower center of gravity (lowered) are non brake system related items that will increase overall braking performance.

Are you looking for great stopping performance with low pedal effort? Or superior pedal feedback or all the above.

I crew on a race team with the Willowood street and racecar technical sales reps. I asked them some interesting questions a couple of weeks ago.

What's the advantage of the bigger massive calipers used on the same rotor?
-Pad wear. The larger calipers support larger brake pads which will last longer in extreme and race situation. Also the thicker pad disperses the heat better. The thick bridge will not really stop better, but will help pedal feel. A weak bridge will flex at first, but really after it flexes it still stops.

-The reason for 4 and 6 pistons is to disperse the load over those bigger brake pads. 4 pistons can still get the job done as the caliper is just designed for that. There is some marketing involved with the 6 piston calipers too. Also the bigger pads will offer more surface area to grip, but still the biggest advantage is wear and resistance to fade.

Brake rotors?
-larger diameter give more stopping torque. But the thickness helps the cooling. Directional vanes help air flow. Mass is a big deal.

The www.arengineering.com 13" setup uses big brembo calipers and thick rotors. But the "feel" I think you are looking for also is going to be tough. That takes some R&D with your particular car. Front to rear bias, leading and laging front to rear, the hydrualic ratios, and power assist amount are just some of the things designed specifically into a high end Porsche or MB braking system.

Talk to Andy at AR Engineering. He is a Mopar guy through and through and he will help tailor something for you.

BTW cross drilling and grooving are for brake fade after repeated hard stops. Something you would only take advantage of if you were on a road coarse or you do really heavy and hard canyon driving. Gasses can built up under the pad and the holes/slots expell the gases.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008 - 02:45:38 AM by autoxcuda »
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Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Brakes What works ....... Really works
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2008 - 03:45:16 AM »
Thanks for the info autoX
 the brakes basically totally failed after 12 laps on a road course , I believe the brake fuid boiled , I still had pressure but no stopping ability so cross drilling & grooving would be a help , the car is lowered with better T bars in front , the shocks could be better though , tires were a major issue as well , i was running on junk !! I had decent pedal modulation / feel , just poor performance & this was with the 12 " Cordoba rotors & single piston calipers with semi Metallic pads in front & 10" drums rear . I am not looking for low pedal effort , having some effort reduces the possibilty of locking the brakes & gives decent threshold feel , I simply want the brakes to grip better . All of this info is helpful & confirmed what I basically understood
 To add to the issue I had probelms with the diff oil seal letting some gear oil out onto the shoes transfering even more brake load to the front brakes & causing them to prematurely overheat , I do have an adjustable proportioning valve in the system already to help balance the brake loading
 Thanks for the link to Andy , I will contact him

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Offline autoxcuda

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Re: Brakes What works ....... Really works
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2008 - 04:42:31 AM »
Thanks for the info autoX
 the brakes basically totally failed after 12 laps on a road course , I believe the brake fuid boiled , I still had pressure but no stopping ability so cross drilling & grooving would be a help , the car is lowered with better T bars in front , the shocks could be better though , tires were a major issue as well , i was running on junk !! I had decent pedal modulation / feel , just poor performance & this was with the 12 " Cordoba rotors & single piston calipers with semi Metallic pads in front & 10" drums rear . I am not looking for low pedal effort , having some effort reduces the possibilty of locking the brakes & gives decent threshold feel , I simply want the brakes to grip better . All of this info is helpful & confirmed what I basically understood
 To add to the issue I had probelms with the diff oil seal letting some gear oil out onto the shoes transfering even more brake load to the front brakes & causing them to prematurely overheat , I do have an adjustable proportioning valve in the system already to help balance the brake loading
 Thanks for the link to Andy , I will contact him


Ok now I have a better idea of your setup, goals, intended use, etc

Tim Werner's 68 Valiant is one of the faster road course cars. He runs AndyF 13" disk system. AndyF has pictures of it hanging on for a while with a GT3!  :o He is an road course instructor though.

Videos of it: Cut to 1:06 






Now Tim Herren's vintage race gutted AAR replica runs a Brake Man system. Vintage requires 15" rims, so his system is designed about that.





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« Last Edit: September 02, 2008 - 04:44:26 AM by autoxcuda »
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Offline autoxcuda

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Re: Brakes What works ....... Really works
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2008 - 04:58:57 AM »
....
 To add to the issue I had probelms with the diff oil seal letting some gear oil out onto the shoes transfering even more brake load to the front brakes & causing them to prematurely overheat , I do have an adjustable proportioning valve in the system already to help balance the brake loading
 Thanks for the link to Andy , I will contact him

The rear fluild sloshing and not venting right is a problem. I told Tim Herren about the seals-it axle tube baffles we run in our 9" ford circle track rear ends. He tried it and it seemed to fit in the tube fine, but didn't work. Forgot the details. Seems the better deal was to eliminate the diff vent and run a big tubed hose about 1 foot long with a breather on it. www.starfish.com and the AAR Cuda run theres into the trunk. They've tried a breather without the long tube and it still leaked.

I think some baffles welded in the tubes near the diff center would help too. Our circle track rears have that too.
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Offline Aussie Challenger

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Re: Brakes What works ....... Really works
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2008 - 06:47:41 AM »
   :iagree:  Most of what has been written above is right, looking at the pic's of your Charger on the track shows a low front. How much air is being directed at the front rotors, good ducting can drop temps down alot and from some of your description you have been experiencing brake fade, that is the rotors have gotten toooo hot and the semi metalic pads have just stopped working. Then the heat also goes into the brake fluid, brake pedal then just flops around.   :hyper:
  I agree about getting rid of the diff breather, install a long hose into a catch can in the trunk or an elevated position in relation to the diff, no chance of a pressure build up. That goes also for the gearbox as well, don't want gearbox oil going onto your clutch.   :22yikes:
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Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Brakes , What works ....... Really works
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2008 - 12:48:45 PM »
I am going to check the breather & replace it with a system from a 4x4 truck up into the frame

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