For The Non Believers - "Aliens"

[jeryst]

No one has placed evidence on the table proving life exists elsewhere.  All that we have is the potential of life elsewhere based on statistical probablity.  That is not evidence.  The fact is we do not know as of today there is life elsewhere.  Everything we have studied (evidence) shows a lifeless ( as we know life) universe.

Just depends how you look at it. Makes more sense to me to say "There is no evidence that other life does not exist". Why? Because we dont know everything about the universe, so to say something doesnt exist just because you cant prove that it does, is a little absurd. It's like living your whole life on a desert island with 3 other poeple, and saying that there are no more people in the world because we've never seen any. Just because they dont make an appearance doesnt mean that they do not exist. At some point in time, there was no evidence that a whole lot of things, like germs for example, exist. Doesnt mean conclusively that they dont exist. Just means that we couldnt detect them.

As far as other life being more advanced than we are, think about it this way. In less than 100 years, we went from the birth of flight, to walking on the moon, and technology has been advancing at an ever increasing pace, so imagine what we will be like in 1000 years. Imagine if other civilizations have already reached that point. Now, humans have only been around for 100 million years or so, and before that, dinosaurs ruled the earth for hundreds of millions of years. Imagine if, instead of the dinosaurs, humans, or some other intelligent life form, had evolved back then. They would be hundreds of millions of years more advanced then we are now. If that happened somewhere else, those beings would have absolutely nothing in common with us, and would have little incentive to interact with us. It would be like one of us sitting down to discuss the merits of HemiCudas, with a fruitfly. We might not even recognize them as life at all. But to say they dont exist because we cant, with our primitive equipment, detect them, well...

[NoMope Greg]

Well said, Jeryst.  I've often thought that if we had a time machine and could take a man from the ancient world and bring him forward 3000 years to our time, he wouldn't be able to comprehend what he was seeing.   He simply wouldn't have the capacity or background to understand.  Imagine - airplanes, computers, telecommunications, robotics, refrigeration, gas grilles, even the light bulb.  He would find many of the things that we take for granted as conveniences of modern life to be sorcery, smoke and mirrors.  Even someone from colonial America would be amazed.  Would it be any different for us?

That doesn't address the question about whether life exists elsewhere - just one of the challenges we're up against in knowing what to look for.  Science is mute at this point about the existence of extraterrestrial life.  All we have is a statistical likelihood, based on the information gathered about how life may have formed on this planet and extrapolating it statistically to the innumerable stars in our galaxy and in the universe.  Given the sheer numbers of stars, it's statistically likely that life formed on other planets in the universe.  But until someone can present hard evidence that life exists on other worlds (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition_of_life ), it's all conjecture and suppostion.  It doesn't mean life exists on other worlds, but it doesn't mean it doesn't.  Science simply cannot say yet.  "Beliefs" about life on other worlds doesn't enter into the equation where science is concerned.

Speaking of which...P.G. mentioned something about "what scientists would have us believe."  While his example was purely tongue-in-cheek (I hope), the underlying concept - that science "wants us" to believe something - bears further scrutiny.

Pure science and it's practioners will not have anyone "believe" anything.  Science deals with observation, hypothesis, validated by testable, repeatable empirical results to arrive at a theory. That theory is subject to review and revision when the facts fail to agree with the hypothesized result.  It presents facts and says "Here's the best explanation I can come up with why this happens this way."  If someone can come up with a better explanation that better fits the facts, pure science demands that this new explanation be adopted as truth.  Science offers no moral judgement on the facts - it merely presents them.  Here's some more about the scientific method: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Many good people of faith believe that, because science offers alternative explanations about the origin of the universe and the origins of life on Earth from the creation stories taught in many religious traditions, that science and, by extension, scientists as a group, deny the existence of God (or gods, in a nod to our Hindu and other pan-theist friends).  In fact, science has nothing to say about the existence of any deities because, as of yet, the existence of God is not a testable hypothesis by empirical means.  In fact, many scientists believe in the existence of God, taking it as an article of faith that He exists.  Others choose to extrapolate the lack of empirical evidence as evidence that God doesn't exist.  For now, the existence of God remains a philosophical debate.  Science has no answer one way or the other.

[Roppa440]

No one has placed evidence on the table proving life exists elsewhere.  All that we have is the potential of life elsewhere based on statistical probablity.  That is not evidence.  The fact is we do not know as of today there is life elsewhere.  Everything we have studied (evidence) shows a lifeless ( as we know life) universe.

There is no evidence for a God either but that does not stop millions of people in the world believing that there is and even killing each other over exactly how to worship Him.

[Aussie Challenger]

There is plenty evidence for God existing. People just discard it on one excuse or another. Fact at the end of the day is, the person making the excuses as to why he doesnt exist simply does because he himself doesnt want to accept even if the fact is he is there. 

     More scientists are proving to themselves that God does exist, many people don't want to acknowledge God's existance because then they might have to accept what is written in the Bible as truth, then most of their pet theories are proven to be wrong.
  Several years ago the then top forensic scientist of Europe, a non believer, set out to prove that the Shroud of Tourin was a fake. After an extensive research & testing he concluded that it was real, he also became a Christian because of his findings.
  The Bible is more than a historical document, the planets and solar systems were put there for us to explore and marvel at the wonder of what God can do.   

[plumcrazy704406]

is it possible that the end of the universe is just the begining again? kindda like the earth, you will not find the end of the earth if you keep going, maybe the universe is a sphearical shape too? or if you hit the end, and take a different tangent, will you hit the universes outerspace? and what from there? i better stop before my head explodes. i think i saw that thing at the local sushi shop. 

d**M, this explains why there are so many days I feel like I 'm running in circles!

[Pistol Gripper]

There is plenty evidence for God existing. People just discard it on one excuse or another. Fact at the end of the day is, the person making the excuses as to why he doesnt exist simply does because he himself doesnt want to accept even if the fact is he is there. 

OK, ball's in your court.  Pile on the evidence.  No, it's in the bible, no, look at the pretty rainbows,  no, I can't explain it, so it has to be god, real evidence that a god exists.

P.G.

Oh,  any guesses on how quick this thread gets locked ?

[Carlwalski]

Come on guys, be civil eh and leave Religion out of it. I believe in God but drink booze, use to smoke, done drugs, swear like a sailor and don't go sing in a church to prove I have faith, me and God have an understanding lol. Anyhow, lets stick to the topic at hand. If you wish to discuss religion, grab a bike, your #1s and have a ball, just not here. No need to lock it, what are we, 12? No harm done IMO. Just keep to the topic lads.

[jeryst]

Come on guys, be civil eh and leave Religion out of it. I believe in God but drink booze, use to smoke, done drugs, swear like a sailor and don't go sing in a church to prove I have faith, me and God have an understanding lol. Anyhow, lets stick to the topic at hand. If you wish to discuss religion, grab a bike, your #1s and have a ball, just not here. No need to lock it, what are we, 12? No harm done IMO. Just keep to the topic lads.

 

As it stands, like it or not, the scientific evidence of the existance of aliens and God, are the same. Neither can be proved or disproved by science.

[Pistol Gripper]

NZ,

No need to lock the thread.  As I'm sure you know, I'm prone to having people back up statements they make.  Especially when it comes to invisible sky pixies ( it's a joke, OK ? )

P.G.

[leithal]

Just depends how you look at it. Makes more sense to me to say "There is no evidence that other life does not exist". Why? Because we dont know everything about the universe, so to say something doesnt exist just because you cant prove that it does, is a little absurd. It's like living your whole life on a desert island with 3 other poeple, and saying that there are no more people in the world because we've never seen any. Just because they dont make an appearance doesnt mean that they do not exist. At some point in time, there was no evidence that a whole lot of things, like germs for example, exist. Doesnt mean conclusively that they dont exist. Just means that we couldnt detect them.

As far as other life being more advanced than we are, think about it this way. In less than 100 years, we went from the birth of flight, to walking on the moon, and technology has been advancing at an ever increasing pace, so imagine what we will be like in 1000 years. Imagine if other civilizations have already reached that point. Now, humans have only been around for 100 million years or so, and before that, dinosaurs ruled the earth for hundreds of millions of years. Imagine if, instead of the dinosaurs, humans, or some other intelligent life form, had evolved back then. They would be hundreds of millions of years more advanced then we are now. If that happened somewhere else, those beings would have absolutely nothing in common with us, and would have little incentive to interact with us. It would be like one of us sitting down to discuss the merits of HemiCudas, with a fruitfly. We might not even recognize them as life at all. But to say they dont exist because we cant, with our primitive equipment, detect them, well...

jeryst,
Read my comments again...absurd?.  I did not say life does not exist elsewhere.  I said there is no real evidence showing there is.  We have been looking for evidence of other life for decades and have come up empty.  That isn't saying THERE IS NO LIFE OUT THERE.  THIS thread began with the idea that anyone who says we are alone is naive.  And that statistically because of the endlessness of space there MUST be life elsewhere.  Sorry that is not evidence.  AS OF THE MOMENT WE ARE ALONE.

[Pistol Gripper]

OK,

At present, we are alone in our little corner of a huge universe.  How about ideas on what we should do if or when someone / something out there says howdy?

P.G.

[Topcat]

OK,

At present, we are alone in our little corner of a huge universe.  How about ideas on what we should do if or when someone / something out there says howdy?

P.G.

Corny, but not a bad idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUcOaGawIW0

[Carlwalski]

OK,

At present, we are alone in our little corner of a huge universe.  How about ideas on what we should do if or when someone / something out there says howdy?

P.G.

Now you are talking Keith and don't worry mate, I've known you and your posts far too long to even think of getting "moody" LOL.

Not sure but I don't think we'll ever get any visitors, not on a scale where we'd have the chance to communicate. If anything we may get a fleet do a drive by that only a few thousand in one time zone spot. When you consider how large the universe is, it's probably A) not worth a trip to this small, back country zone, B) perhaps they just haven't found us (it's that big of a place "apparently") and C) maybe they've been and didn't like it. That brings about another point, when I say "they" who's to say it's only 1 species. There are more than likely hundreds or thousands of others out there which is not hard to believe, look at how many millions of species we have on earth. It's probably like finding a needle tip in a haystack.

[Pistol Gripper]

Carl,

The other possibility that it seems no one ever comes up with is that of time scale.  Sure the universe is so vast that any sentient life is probably so far from us that our paths will never cross.  But what if in the billions or trillions of years that the universe has existed, a sentient race did come along right next door ?  Chances are that they came and went long before we did, or will come along well after we are gone.  The earth's been around for 4,500 million years or so, man only around 11,600 years ( at least in a civilization an alien would be able to contact ).  To me, contact seems pretty unlikely.

P.G.

[Carlwalski]

Carl,

The other possibility that it seems no one ever comes up with is that of time scale.  Sure the universe is so vast that any sentient life is probably so far from us that our paths will never cross.  But what if in the billions or trillions of years that the universe has existed, a sentient race did come along right next door ?  Chances are that they came and went long before we did, or will come along well after we are gone.  The earth's been around for 4,500 million years or so, man only around 11,600 years ( at least in a civilization an alien would be able to contact ).  To me, contact seems pretty unlikely.

P.G.

Dang, that's deep mate. Honestly, good point, never thought of that and it's so true.
Apparently Earth is only young, somehow lol. In astrology talk anyhow. So yeah, good call mate, agree 100%.

Just for conversation sake, can you imagine how weird/funny/odd it would be if there was another earth basically like ours with different continents, maybe 12 of them etc, same looking people bar a few other minor changes. Imagine if they were millions of miles away doing what we are doing now lol Wondering about other life forms hahahaha......no one can prove if that is true or not, who knows. I do think whatever's out there is far superior to us. But from what I have seen on Nat Geo etc is there will also be planets they suspect with bugs and microscope type organisms as life so there is the other end of the scale.