Author Topic: starting off help  (Read 2170 times)

Offline Young _Gun

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starting off help
« on: September 11, 2008 - 03:47:03 PM »
I've been thinking about building my first smallblock V8. Only I'm not sure what size I should start out with. When I'm finished building the engine, I hope to have already bought something to put in. so.......318? 340? 360?
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Offline NoMope Greg

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Re: starting off help
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2008 - 03:59:06 PM »
Any of the three are good engines that can make lots of power.  The 318 and the 360 will be easiest on your wallet, since they are very plentiful - you might even find someone who will give you a running engine, let alone a buildable core.  The 360 has more potential for power, thanks to the extra cubes, and there are lots of performance parts available.  However, even a stock 318 can provide lots of smiles per mile in the right car and will get better fuel mileage - an important consideration for most young people, let alone us "old guys."   :roflsmiley:  340's are much harder to find, so the initial cost to get the core is higher, but it's no more expensive to build than a 360 or 318.  I doubt you'll find a decent core for less than $500.  You can buy a lot of parts for $500.  :money: :working:
Greg
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Offline Young _Gun

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Re: starting off help
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2008 - 04:26:41 PM »
but what about boring out? can I bore out a 318 to a 392? and wouldn't it be easier to bore out a 340 or 360?
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Offline ChallengerHK

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Re: starting off help
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2008 - 04:52:16 PM »
That's a lot of boring. Usually you can bore a block somewhere between .030 to .060 nefore you start running into trouble. The volume of any given cylinder is pi(radius^2)*height, and multiply that by 8 to get total displacement.

You can bore AND stroke, however, to get lots of extra cubes. Again, most people don't put the money into the smaller (318) blocks, although you can do so, and make serious power with them.

For what it's worth, if I was building my first engine I'd make it relatively stock and tame until I figured out what I was doing, and then maybe go on to do something wilder and more radical.

One more thing: 340s are getting hard to find and expensive.


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Offline Young _Gun

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Re: starting off help
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2008 - 06:10:27 PM »
thanks a lot. I was thinking the same thing myself. I mean, if a 318 isn't that hard to find, I don't think I'll have much trouble finding another block to bore and stroke after a while
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Offline The Cuda Guy

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Re: starting off help
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2008 - 06:19:40 PM »
Go with the 360.  You will be happier in the long run.

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Offline ChallengerHK

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Re: starting off help
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2008 - 06:24:57 PM »
Here's your avatar re-sized, Young Gun.


"She'll make point five past light speed. She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, and I've made a lot of special modifications myself."

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Offline NoMope Greg

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Re: starting off help
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2008 - 06:26:46 PM »
Boring a cylinder is usually for the sole purpose of making it cylindrical again.  As an engine is run, the upper part of the cylinder slowly wears more than the bottom, leading to a condition known as taper - the cylinder is a little wider at the top than at the bottom.  This leads to poor sealing at the top - which is, of course, where combustion occurs and where most of the work of the expanding gases is done.  Poor ring seal leads to lower power and increased oil consumption.  When an engine is rebuilt, the cylinders are measured for taper - how much larger the cylinder is at the top than the bottom - and if it's beyond factory specs, then the cylinders must be bored out to make them the same size from top to bottom.  The amount of taper allowed is typically very small - only .010 inches (aka 1/100th of an inch) for a 360 - before the cylinder needs to be reconditioned.

In addition, the cylinder will also wear more to one side than the other, leading to the bore not being round - known as (not surprisingly) "out-of-round."  Again, for a 360, it's only allowed to be .005 inches out-of-round - yes, 5/1000's of an inch.

When the cylinder is re-conditioned, the machinist will set the block up in a boring machine and overbore the cylinders a small amount.  As HK said, common overbores are .030 and .060 over, although overbores of .020 and .040 are not uncommon.  In other words, using a 360 as our base, the standard bore is 4.000 inches diameter (or 2.000 inch radius) and the standard stroke is 3.58 inches.  Using the volume of the cylinder equation HK provided, that means each cylinder is 2 x 2 x 3.1415 x 3.58 = 44.99 cubic inches x 8 = 359.9 cubic inches.  Going out the maximum allowable overbore of .040 inches, (See http://www.angelfire.com/ca/mikesspot/360specs.html for specifications) means that each cylinder now has a bore of 4.040 inches, or a 2.02 inch radius.  Plug that back into the equation and we get 45.89 cubic inches per cylinder or 367 cubic inches.  Not much bigger.

However, you can buy a new crankshaft that will allow the engine to be much larger.  For example, Eagle sells a stroker crank for the 360 that is 4.000 inches - almost a half inch more stroke per cylinder.  Plugging that number into your standard-bore engine nets 50.26 cubic inches per cylinder or 402 cubic inches.  However, stroker cranks sometimes require extra machine work such as notching the bottoms of the cylinders, since the extra length of the throws still has to fit inside the same space in the block.   I found this page that details the buildup of a stroked 360, including prices for everything except machine work: http://www.coopofdoom.net/stroker.html

I agree with HK - if you want to start learning about engines, find a 318 and do a mild buildup.  I'm 43, building my first engine (the 440 that was in it) and am sure that the power produced is going to scare the heck out of me the first time I get in it.  And I'm a professional driver with over 25 years behind the wheel.  It far better to learn with less power - you're less likely to get into trouble.  I know, I probably sound just like your dad, but almost anyone on here will tell you the same thing.  
Greg
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Offline MEK-Dangerfield

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Re: starting off help
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2008 - 06:27:55 PM »
Boring isn't really where you get extra horse-power. Stroking, and having a decent set of ported heads is where it's at...If that's your aim?? I'll agree with the 360 suggestions.   :thumbsup:


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Offline Bullitt-

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Re: starting off help
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2008 - 11:04:11 PM »
Attend the local shows & club meetings to find folks with cars/parts/experience. Looks like a show & go is coming to your state. http://www.mirdrag.com/v2/flyers/event/pdf/08_mopar.pdf

Recently a local club member gave away a small block Demon that he could not sell fast enough..... You may luck out & find a 318 that doesn't need a rebuild & you can do minor mods to get your feet wet.

Good luck
Da Bullitt
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008 - 11:24:52 PM by bullitt99 »
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Offline black71

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Re: starting off help
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2008 - 12:40:49 AM »
hey stay in there Young_Gun i know what its like! i was told when it comes to performance think of it this way, any internal combustion engine is basically an air pump, the more air in+more air out= more power...(and keep in mind that cubic inch displacement is referring to cubic inches of air taken into the cylinder and pushed back out)
  you guys had some interesting formulas for finding displacement... i've always used .785 x bore^2 x stroke x # of cylinders.............

Offline NoMope Greg

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Re: starting off help
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2008 - 01:41:38 AM »
hey stay in there Young_Gun i know what its like! i was told when it comes to performance think of it this way, any internal combustion engine is basically an air pump, the more air in+more air out= more power...(and keep in mind that cubic inch displacement is referring to cubic inches of air taken into the cylinder and pushed back out)
  you guys had some interesting formulas for finding displacement... i've always used .785 x bore^2 x stroke x # of cylinders.............

It's the same formula - .785 is pi/4, necessary to use the bore # instead of dividing it in half to get the radius.   :2thumbs:
Greg
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Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: starting off help
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2008 - 12:15:34 PM »
my choice would be the 360 , it costs close to the same to build any engine & the 360 is more bang for the $$
 one of the later Truck engines from 88 up offers more potential yet as it will take the HYd roller cam & will have better heads

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Offline black71

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Re: starting off help
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2008 - 07:19:02 PM »
 :2thumbs: gotcha thanks... hehe i'm just a little slow sometimes  :screwy:

Offline mikerallye

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Re: starting off help
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2008 - 11:00:42 PM »
Listen to what Bullit said, go to shows and ask questions, most guys there are helpful and may give you some good leads on parts and cars. I wasted alot of money experimenting by myself.