Author Topic: Changing valve stem seals  (Read 3782 times)

Offline Super Blue 72

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Re: Changing valve stem seals
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2008 - 05:49:21 PM »
What if the seals leaked enough to foul plugs and caused them to misfire? Would that be possible?

I would think so.  When my 318's seals went bad, the engine was consuming a lot of oil and and the plugs were fouled.  I was like 18 and had some 80W gear oil and used that to tide me over until I changed out the seals.  :screwy:  :icon16:
1972 Dodge Challenger Rallye 340, AT, Code TB3=Super Blue, SBD=8/17/1971.  Yes, a Rallye without the fender louvers from the factory because of the body side molding option.

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Phil in New England-Massachusetts  Always thank God for what you have!

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Offline Supercuda

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Re: Changing valve stem seals
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2008 - 06:32:10 PM »
A little note concerning smoke on startup, and diagnosing a "smoking" engine. Oil always burns as a blue to blue-gray smoke, never white. White smoke is always fuel or water. Pure water will disappear immediately or almost immediately (depending upon ambient temperature), and coolant will linger, and usually smells sweet. It will also leave a film on the inside of the exhaust pipe. White smoke that dissipates slowly, or not at all, and smells of fuel, or has no smell, is likely fuel. This has a bearing upon Willard's hot restart problem. That the engine will only start with the accelerator pedal floored, and it belches white smoke when it does start, indicates that the fuel in the carburetot is boiling out, and landing in the intake manifold. Fresh oil on a spark plug that is pulled from an engine that has just been shut down, indicates that the cylinder wasn't firing at all, and that there is likely no fuel in the cylinder, as it would wash down any oil, and smell of gasoline, if fuel was making it into the cylinder, and the spark plug not firing. When oil is burned during running, and it is constant, it is usually due to worn or stuck rings. When it is due to bad valve stem seals, a puff of smoke (blue) on startup, along with increased burning of oil (smoke returns or gets worse) when the engine is at higher speeds, and especially under high intake vacuum conditions. When stem seals are bad enough to foul plugs, the rings are usually suspect as well. A compression test will indicate whether the rings are involved in oil loss. If compression readings rise significantly upon squirting a little oil into the chambers, the rings are involved. When guides are loose, it usually shows up as a fluttering needle on the vacuum gauge, with no real change in performance associated with it. If the engine has vacuum reading flutter, good compression, and oil consumption that is usually most evident on startup, rebuild the heads. If there is no vacuum reading flutter, oil consumption mostly on startup, and good compression, then just replace the stem seals. My experience with air applied to a cylinder at TDC, has led me to positively stop the crank from turning with some physical means, before applying the air to the cylinder. Using string or rope is much more convenient on most engines, as it does not expand, thus turning the crank, and dropping the valve. A good rule to follow here is: Don't feed the entire string into the chamber! You want it to be as easy to retrieve as it was to install. Moving through the firing order is easiest, but involves switching sides with almost every cylinder. Not too bad, but can be a hassle. Don't laugh, but use a good quality rope or string, and not plastic. If you lose any fibers from a natural fiber rope, it will burn away. If you lose any plastic fibers, you are just playing with potential glue inside the engine. I have even used electrical wire for the job of holding the valves up, in a pinch. String is easier.

Offline LAA66

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Re: Changing valve stem seals
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2008 - 11:57:15 PM »
 Good info there Supercuda. You seem to know your mechanics.  :thumbsup:

 A recent rebuild of my tractor motor had confirmed the bad rings (constant oil use) and blue smoke after a long down hill section then hitting the throttle (valve seals). One of the cylinders had a collaped compression ring and the intake valves were caked from oil getting down the loose guides. I think the crankcase was getting pressurized also by the turbo to make matters worse.

 

Offline willard

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Re: Changing valve stem seals
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2008 - 04:36:12 AM »
Thanks for your input supercuda.
In my case the compression is good so I assume the rings are OK. THe vac reading (mainfold) at idle is steady so valve guides are OK too. The white smoke is IMO water in the exhaust (we have a quite humid autumn now) and that white smoke is visible only at the initial, cold start (when engine fires immediately!).
When the engine is hot there is no smoke at all. I can't tell how much oil is consumed by the engine as the rear seal or oil pan is leaking.
First I thought it may be the problem of fuel boiling in the carb but even with hot enigine the carb squirters eject fuel when pulling throttle lever.
if the engine was flooded with gas would it just soak into cylinders after turning off? I thought it would rest in intake mainfold and then at startup creating  a far too rich mixture thus the need of "venting" with floored pedal and cranking.
In my case I think it is oil on the plugs resulting in random misfire and weak spark, and when the negine is hot oil leaks thru guides to the cylinders, covers electrodes. When I crank it with floored pedal the air flow slightly cleans the electrodes and finally the engine starts. When it is cold (resting several hours) I think that the oil soaks through the rings and the electrodes are dry.

Am i thinking right?
1970 383 R/T SE

Offline moper

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Re: Changing valve stem seals
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2008 - 12:26:16 PM »
What are the compression readings, and what (to the best of your knowledge) is in it for parts? Honestly, I agree with some of Supercuda. But I read a lot about fuel "boiling out". It does just that. It evaporates, but it goes outt eh vents, not down into the engine. The hard start is usually a mix of poor tuning, and average machining/assembly. Engines whose rings have not seated could be that way for a variety or reasons. Camshafts that are not degreed may be installed at less then optimum and that will also cause hard starting, hot or cold. Basically, a lot of what was reported tells me you have an engine with probably average ring seal, maybe too rougha  hone finish for the rings, possibly washed it a bit during startups, and the result is the thing isnt sealing well. Crankcase pressure causes oil leaks in most cases. Also, poor ring seating causes oil to be introduced into the chambers instead of being scraped off by the second ring. My advice is tune it or have it looked at by someone who is not indifferent to Edelbrock, and then see how it does. If it's caught early enough, just by getting it to run well will let the rings seat. If not, they never will be great. Just my $.02

Offline LAA66

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Re: Changing valve stem seals
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2008 - 10:09:55 PM »
 How much blow-by are you getting from the breather at a hot idle? To me that tells if the rings are done in.

 My 650 Holley boils when really hot and is hard to restart. Some times wide open throttle is required to get her going again. I do have a heat riser in the edlebrock LD 340 so that maybe the problem here. I am deciding whtger to get a block off plate or spring for a newer manifold.

Offline Supercuda

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Re: Changing valve stem seals
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2008 - 08:37:05 PM »
Sometimes, it's easier to understand a problem when you get to watch it happen. I have experienced fuel percolation in both Holley and Edelbrock carburetors, as well as in a Mikuni. When the heat underhood is high enough around the fuel bowl(s) of your carburetor(s), fuel is actually boiled (percolated) out of the carb, and the fuel will pour out of any available orifice, including the main nozzles, the idle passages, and the air bleeds and bowl vents. It's really ugly to see, and it happens within about 15 minutes of a hot shutdown, in my experience. This problem will continue to be a problem for most of us, as we run carburetors. Modern gasoline is not designed for use in an application running at atmospheric pressure. The fuel cools as soon as it leaves the carb bowl, and puddles in the intake manifold. Any open intake valve invites a richer mixture to enter that chamber, and thus makes it more difficult to fire the engine. In the worst case scenario, a downhill intake is open when this happens, and the fuel doesn't puddle in the intake manifold, but runs right into the open cylinder. As soon as the engine cranks, the liquid fuel stops that cylinder from doing anything, and the engine stops turning over. This can ruin your day. Another problem that early Edelbrock carbs had, was leaky well plugs, which usually leaked when hot. Drained every drop of fuel into the intake. The best cures for a hot-soak fuel percolation problem, are heat shields and carb spacers made of dense materials (wood and phenolic resin are excellent). The Carter Thermoquad was designed with a phenolic resin main body to help limit fuel percolation. Carroll Shelby used a box around the carb in his 427 Cobra. I used an aluminum pizza plate, cut to shape, to deflect heat from the radiator away from the front of my carb. That, in combination with a 1/2" phenolic resin spacer, made all the difference in my '71 Satellite, which was my daily driver in Phoenix. If the problem has only recently surfaced, check all tune-up adjustments on your car, and all fluid levels and condition. Sometimes, it takes only a minor change from "normal" to screw around with something like today's gasoline. The use of "Winter blend" fuel on a warm day, is another source of this problem.

Offline LAA66

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Re: Changing valve stem seals
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2008 - 09:54:28 PM »
 That makes sense in my situation. It smells of fuel from under the hood on a hot day just after shutdown. I added a carb heat shield but it didn't solve the problem. I suspect the heat riser. :eek7:

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Changing valve stem seals
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2008 - 01:17:13 AM »
it looks like you have headers o no heat riser , although blocking the heat port under the intake definatly helps a Lot

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Offline willard

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Re: Changing valve stem seals
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2008 - 03:26:30 AM »
I will check if the problem with hot start shows up when I run it only a couple of minutes and then shut down for let's say 15 minutes. I this case the mainfold is not so hot yet, so if it really was boiling fuel the engine should start after these 15 minutes right on.
As far as my 383 is concerned can't say what is inside but:
- the rocker arms, valve springs, heads are stock
- idle vacuum is 18" and not jumping
- compression is 9-9,5 atm (130-140 psi)
- timing 12 BTDC initial, no vacc advance. trying to set it at factory 0-2.5 BTDC but doesnt like it - works very roughly and shakes.
- no smoke thru pcv or oil cap
- no smoke/blow thru dipstick
- good mpg
- engine temp is good, slightly rises when going faster than 80mph
- oil pressure at idle - 80psi when cold 25 psi when hot
- black matt residue (carbon) on the exhaust tips (I guess I should jet the carb down but have no smaller jest and I'm waiting for holley)
- ingition is ok (ballast, distributor, wires, spark plugs are dirty with black residue - from burntoil I guess)
- stock intake, exhaust, heads
- edelbrock 1407 carburettor, stock jets/rods
- at neutral it reaches 5500rpm, 6000 shouldnt be a problem
- brake/flash stall is only 1800 rpm - some people say can be due to malfunctioning engine, but I opt for low stal lconverter put in for better mpg
- when starts cold the engine shakes then smoothens but IMO is not running real smooth - I think it can be weak spark due to electrodes covered with oil/carbon (waiting for new spark plugs - they should be in the mail somewhere ;) )
- the car goes well but has no kick, when floored barely spins the wheel (but the rpm hits only 1800 at WOT at start)

Some of the problems should dissapear when brand new plugs are installed. When I get holley and a set of jets I'll be able to set the A/F ratio right.
1970 383 R/T SE