What would you have done?

[bb71challenger]

Yeah that kind of stuff used to happen around here all the time. 2 guys here bought up a lot of 'Cudas and Challengers and just mixed and matched stuff the way they wanted. They pulled data plates and had collections of them like trading cards. I have a couple of parts cars from one of these dudes and there must be like at least a couple extra dashpad frames complete with vin plates. They are just cores as far as I am concerned and the vin plates are worthless IMO.

[priderocks]

The cowl # from car A was cut out and removed to car B. I saw the work. Even the CSI people could not tell which was which.

So, nobody has yet answered my original question, i.e. what constitutes "the car". Is it the vin tag? Core support plus vin tag? Core support plus cowl # plus vin tag?
 If I buy a removed vin tag, a core support, and the cut out # on the cowl, have I technically (or legally) purchased the car? Title laws vary by state, so one doesn't even need the title.

I guess I don't see the diff between bringing the cowl/vin/core to the car and bringing the car to the cowl/vin/core.

[Moparal]

     You cant transfere any of that to another car in any state. Why would you     I dont care how good a welder you are.

[73Chally]

I think a lot of it has to do with the spirit of the law.  If ypu take the VIN, cowl, and rad support from car A and put it onto car B, that does not make car B car A, if that makes sense.  To legitimately keep car A as it is, he should have rebuilt it from the ground up.  Yeah, it would have taken a lot more time and money, but then he would by all rights have the original car.  I don't care how good a welder he is, you will always be able to tell the transplanted cowl number when stripped down to bare metal.  The fact that he took this much effort to transfer the numbers from A to B tells me there is more to it than just building a car for himself  .

[Alaskan_TA]

I guess I don't see the diff between bringing the cowl/vin/core to the car and bringing the car to the cowl/vin/core.

There is no difference, both are the same thing, illegal.

There are "CSI" type ways to detect welded in body numbers with no paint removal needed. 

[bb71challenger]

There is no difference, both are the same thing, illegal.

There are "CSI" type ways to detect welded in body numbers with no paint removal needed. 

Yep, you're right. I have heard rumors of a guy who wants to do that very thing. Weld in the rad support and cowl parts from one car to make another. I just dont see why people even want to risk it. 

[Carlwalski]

Build the car how you want, then get a custom tag made up, a "fun" one.

[priderocks]

So, back to my question. If someone buys a vin tag, a core support, and the cowl/firewall with the correct # on it, have they purchased "a car"? If not, how much more do they need to buy? The roof? The fenders and doors? The k-member+ fenders, what? Seventeen buckets of rust? If, in buying just those pieces, they have actually purchased what defines a LEGAL auto, there are no grounds to complain about people selling such items. And there are no grounds to complain about people taking those bare pieces and building the rest of the car around them.

[Alaskan_TA]

So, back to my question. If someone buys a vin tag..............

There is no need to go any further than that right there.........

Merely being in possesion of a loose VIN tag is a crime in most states.

Buying a VIN tag is illegal.

Selling a VIN tag is also illegal. Maybe you and the seller can share a cell. 

Why is it so hard for people to just do the right thing & obey the laws on this? 

[67vertman]

Why is it so hard for people to just do the right thing & obey the laws on this? 

One word Barry.....MONEY.....$$$$$$ which leads to greed.

[Katfish]

He does bring up an interesting question.  What constitutes building the car up around the VIN?  If you start with a basket case and replace 95% of the sheet metal, is that car "original"?

If you have a front end wreck and need to replace the radiator support and cowl with a donor car, is that still "original"?

[priderocks]

In my stable of cars is a 68 383 formula s fastback barracuda. This is a numbers-correct car that Govier just did a tag decode on for me. I recently purchased a dash frame on ebay because my original frame was hacked up. On this car, the vin tag is on the dash frame, not on the pad like e-bodies. So, my replacement frame came with the vin tag still on it. What the heck, did I just buy "a car"? If he had said, "oh yeah, I'll throw in the old title for the car with the dash frame", could I have built a legal functioning auto around that single piece? Am I a felon because I ground off the old rivets and threw that old vin tag in my tool box? When I removed the vin tag on my 70 Challenger dash pad and sent it to Just Dashes for a $950 redo, did I just become a criminal? Give me a break.

[73Chally]

The VIN tag belongs on the car it was "born" on.  It's expected that parts will be replaced, and yes, maybe it will be 95%, but the crime occurs when you physically remove the VIN tag and put it onto a different car.  If the car is "17 buckets of rust", then it should be crushed and the VIN tag crushed with it, or thrown away.  The only reason we are having this discussion is because someone wanted to take what was probably a high optioned, high dollar car, and resurrect it as something it through a different body.  If the friend didn't want to do the right thing and rebuild the original car, then he should have crushed it along with the VIN tag and fender tags, or throw them away and sell the shell for parts.  Plain and simple, what he did is against the law.  It might not seem right, but that's what it is.

[73Chally]

In my stable of cars is a 68 383 formula s fastback barracuda. This is a numbers-correct car that Govier just did a tag decode on for me. I recently purchased a dash frame on ebay because my original frame was hacked up. On this car, the vin tag is on the dash frame, not on the pad like e-bodies. So, my replacement frame came with the vin tag still on it. What the heck, did I just buy "a car"? If he had said, "oh yeah, I'll throw in the old title for the car with the dash frame", could I have built a legal functioning auto around that single piece? Am I a felon because I ground off the old rivets and threw that old vin tag in my tool box? When I removed the vin tag on my 70 Challenger dash pad and sent it to Just Dashes for a $950 redo, did I just become a criminal? Give me a break.

You need to read up on the laws.  The seller of your dash frame should have removed the VIN tag and thrown it away.  Since he didn't, you should.  Have you seen the story about Unique Performance (the Eleanor Mustangs) here in Dallas being shut down by the FEDS for VIN fraud?  VIN tags are a very dicey area, and you need to know what you're getting into when people start moving them around.

[Alaskan_TA]

Everyone should read the VIN laws for their state in addition to the Federal laws BEFORE doing anything VIN tag related. 

The federal laws and the laws I have for some states can be seen here;

http://www.hamtramck-historical.com/VINfraud/VINfraud.shtml

If anyone has a complete set of laws available for any states not shown there yet, please contact me?