What would you have done?

[71bigblock]

Yeah, but there most likely arent any #'s stamped in the sheetmetal on the chevy truck cab.  On my '67 and '65 Dodge cabs I had, no numbers, anywhere.  Only on the vin plate riveted onto the cab, and stamped onto the frame.  Nothing wrong with swapping cabs, there are no numbers involved there...   

[cudadave72]

I guess what fires me up about this is that my old shop was next door to a guy that dealt heavily in Buick GS cars. He had one car that appeared to be a real GS stage 1 455 car and apon further discussion it turns out the original car was completely rusted out and the person who restored this car used all the I.D. tags and title and was passing this car off as the original. My thoughts at the time was what a crook to do such a thing.

[heminut]

But if your buying a car being sold as a #'s car, isn't it up to yourself to confirm it? I don't agree with the donor swap 100% because there is usually an ulterior motive for doing such, but if the guys above the board with it, well.............I think that"s a different story.
I like to think there are people that can save some of the "crushable" cars, but at what cost are we willing to let that happen. We are in a hobby that unfortunately will always have some unscrupulous players!

 

Doesn't make any difference if he is above board, it's still illegal! The officer that gave the auto theft class that I attended said flat out "If I find a car that has had the numbers screwed with, it's seized. It doesn't make any difference to me what the owner's story is." Just the fact that the VIN has been altered is probable cause enough to seize the car, and eventually destroy it. The owner doesn't have to have criminal intent or even have been aware of the fact. Law enforcement doesn't even have to file criminal charges against anyone, just the fact that the car has altered VINs is enough to take it. Anyone who owns a car like that is taking a gamble on loosing it. What are the odds of your vehicle ever being checked by a savvy auto theft officer? Probably pretty slim, but I would much rather spend my money on a legit car and not have to worry about it.

[craigsmytcudas]

I guess what fires me up about this is that my old shop was next door to a guy that dealt heavily in Buick GS cars. He had one car that appeared to be a real GS stage 1 455 car and apon further discussion it turns out the original car was completely rusted out and the person who restored this car used all the I.D. tags and title and was passing this car off as the original. My thoughts at the time was what a crook to do such a thing.

dave good point id like to add to this ,if the gs retained the frame its #s are intact and only the actual dash tags been removed .one can say the cowl was repaired and it was cut at the frame to body bolts and replaced . remember if you take the body off the chassis did you remove the vin from the chassis ! . some of you might have seen the black hemi cuda that won a class at the nats a few years back ,it made a spread in one of the mags .this car was a matching #s ex race car .it was cut all apart over half the car was rebuilt and still a match ? . at one point it was a core support ft rails cowl and top it might as well have been that gs . my point is every one thinks thats still a match but i think its worth saving but not a match . its a salvage car like the gs and should be titled as such ,along with any car were it cost more than loan value to restore .this would satisfy the feds and collectors .c

[ChallengerHK]

I've said this several times but it bears repeating. The law, and ethics, define "rebodying" as moving the VIN from one car to another. What the law, and ethics, have not defined is "What constitutes a car?"

But, I must say: I have a 69 Dart that some A-hole cut the firewall out of for some crazy reason. I am using a cowl from a 73 Dart. I sure as heII am not titling it as a 73, and I would be sure to inform anyone even though I plan to never get rid of it.  

The last time this idea came up, I pointed out that I have replaced my fenders, header hood, quarters, partial trunk floor and tail panel. Someone at the time opined that my car is a rebody. Rubbish, of course, but it does make my point above.

[cudax34me]

Doesn't make any difference if he is above board, it's still illegal! The officer that gave the auto theft class that I attended said flat out "If I find a car that has had the numbers screwed with, it's seized. It doesn't make any difference to me what the owner's story is." Just the fact that the VIN has been altered is probable cause enough to seize the car, and eventually destroy it. The owner doesn't have to have criminal intent or even have been aware of the fact. Law enforcement doesn't even have to file criminal charges against anyone, just the fact that the car has altered VINs is enough to take it. Anyone who owns a car like that is taking a gamble on loosing it. What are the odds of your vehicle ever being checked by a savvy auto theft officer? Probably pretty slim, but I would much rather spend my money on a legit car and not have to worry about it.

this being said it is apparent that the laws governing this subject need to be updated.taking into consideration the number of restorations being done worldwide by legitimate restorers and or collector car owners.
that being said i changed out a k member on my '73 bcuda years ago.does it have a # on it?if so do i need to correct this?the reason i ask is i ran across this part and thought of this thread.

http://www.restorick.com/proddetail.asp?prod=KMemberCoin

[plumcrazy704406]

I think having all pretty much discussed here, it is an issue that will NEVER go away! I don't think I need to keep harping on the fact that people should do their homework or have someone do it for them. Lends credence to the third party analysis. Don't leave it up to the law to tell you you got ripped and by the way the cars ours!

 

[heminut]

The K member doesn't have any bearing on the validity of the car, it's a bolt on part.

[cudax34me]

The K member doesn't have any bearing on the validity of the car, it's a bolt on part.

ok so what is the (k-member oval id coin) as they refer to it (for)?? i'm curious about it since somebody thought it significant enough to repop it.

[JS27N0B]

ok so what is the (k-member oval id coin) as they refer to it (for)?? i'm curious about it since somebody thought it significant enough to repop it.

It has the last 2 digits of the part# of the K member stamped in it.

[cudax34me]

thanks for the info.saw that part and started wondering what it was.

[torredcuda]

cudax34 makes a good point that the law needs to be updated with more specifics on what is OK when restoring a classic car.It has already been mentioned but I also worked in body shops that would routinely clip cars that were in an accident and at least in my state is perfectly legal and signed off by a DMV officer who was frequently in the shop as we also sold rebiudable wrecks.This debate will continue untill new laws are written to eliminate the gray areas of restoration and what constitutes a car and at what point is it considered a re-body.   

[heminut]

I believe that in a lot of states the titles will be different after a part of the vehicle has been changed that had a VIN stamping, probably showing the vehicle as rebuilt or reconstructed. This leaves a paper trail and shows that the mods were done according to the law of that state. Harley motorcycles have the factory VIN stamped in the engine cases and the frame. My 77 Harley had new aftermarket engine cases installed by the previous owner. Arizona had the bike titled as a reconstructed Harley and even assigned an Arizona VIN startin with AZ, which was stamped on the factory frame and the aftermarket engine cases. The reconstructed designation on the title carried over onto my New Mexico title. This was all done according to the laws of the state in which it was done and was state inspected, and is therefore legal. Different states have different ways of going about doing these things, and it's not controlled by the federal government, so it may be different from one state to the next. The issue here was changing out VIN stamped parts from one vehicle to another which would result in a car with 2 different VINs on the car. THAT is illegal in any state as far as I'm aware.

[Moparal]

I guess the original poster shy'ed away from all of this.

[heminut]

I guess the original poster shy'ed away from all of this.

Funny how that happens!