Bodyshop horror story

[fishn4cuda]

I have found this thread an interesting read. I own my own Restoration shop. Restoration can not be compared to collision work. Two different avenues. Each car is different and can open up new issues as you go. We have crossed lines with many of the good and bad here at my shop over the last 20 yrs. I gave up on collision work over 10 yrs ago and all I do is Restos. Still takes a year to do a body right depending on how much each customer can budget each month.
I have one customer that refuses to pay ahead. Thats fine. But he only wants to spend $500 per month. That's a day and a half and then all stop. I have had his car for 3 1/2 yrs now.

If I put 3 guys on one car in a week, I can eat up $4800 in one week. Most can not afford to move at that pace. Most customers don't realize there can and is alot of donated/ support the cause work done to each car at my shop. Done it for yrs. Only ever had 1 customer in 20 yrs that walked out my door dissatified. But he wanted something for nothing. All others were estatic with the work done even if it cost more than first expected.

Communication is the best solution. I am saddened to hear of shops taking advantage of some of you here. I hope it works out and you get to enjoy your car soon. Thats what it should be about...fun!

[Lunchbox]

Good reading, thanks for sharing.

Lunch

[ViperMan]

Well put, Tony.

I think a big topic he mentioned is that customers don't understand.  A lot of people simply don't understand restoration work.  People have no concept of how long it takes to do seemingly simple stuff like dissasemble a car or strip paint, couple with the experience - and thus the pay - that these people have.

For the short duration I worked at the restoration shop, one of my jobs was to field calls from people who were looking for estimates, looking for availability, work load, etc.  I was simply amazed at how clueless these people were.

First, I had people wanting me to give an over-the-phone ball-park estimate on a "full restoration" of some car they owned.  You can't make a good estimate in PERSON - how the hell can I do it over the phone?!  My answer was simple though - "quarter of a million bucks."  "What??!"  "Hey, you give me incomplete information, I'll give you an incomplete estimate."

The second was people who could give me a detailed list of what they wanted - motor rebuilt, new suspension, upgraded brakes, replace the convertible top, paint and body...  I'd keep saying "yeup, that's all well and good" and then they'd say "I'm looking to spend about 15 to 20..."  I'd pause...  "15 to 20...  what?" I'd ask.  "Thousand - fifteen to twenty thousand."  I'd have to chuckle lightly and say, "sir, for the amount of work you just described, you won't spend a penny less than at LEAST one-hundred thousand dollars."  Now, mind you, I had been trained at WyoTech, done body work myself, and was working at a restoration shop with quite a few $100,000 jobs in progress, and these people would get mad at ME and tell me I had no idea what I was talking about.

Of course that line always lead to this line, "But the car isn't even worth that much!"

And that point I was instructed by my manager to give them the line from Snap-On magazine, as quoted by Jay Leno.  I'll bet big bucks Tony knows this one:

"If you build a car, and you do it right, and you make money off of it...

...you did something wrong."  -Jay Leno

I'm not taking sides here at all, but it's important to remember that there are two sides to every coin.

Jeff

[ChallengerHK]

I think a big topic he mentioned is that customers don't understand. 

I agree with a lot of that. I also think there are a lot of swindlers out there, though.

My car has no interior other than the front seats, and nothing in the trunk. The last three shops I've taken it to for body/paint have quoted me prices for full restorations, when all of the sheet metal is solid, rust-free, AND ACCESSIBLE. When I ask for a price for my car, in the shape it's in today; they give me the party line that "there might be hidden damage." When I tell them that I'll pay two hours labor to put it on a lift and check it out, then they say "that won't tell us anything."

[plumcrazy704406]

Well put, Tony.

I think a big topic he mentioned is that customers don't understand.  A lot of people simply don't understand restoration work.  People have no concept of how long it takes to do seemingly simple stuff like dissasemble a car or strip paint, couple with the experience - and thus the pay - that these people have.

For the short duration I worked at the restoration shop, one of my jobs was to field calls from people who were looking for estimates, looking for availability, work load, etc.  I was simply amazed at how clueless these people were.

First, I had people wanting me to give an over-the-phone ball-park estimate on a "full restoration" of some car they owned.  You can't make a good estimate in PERSON - how the hell can I do it over the phone?!  My answer was simple though - "quarter of a million bucks."  "What??!"  "Hey, you give me incomplete information, I'll give you an incomplete estimate."

The second was people who could give me a detailed list of what they wanted - motor rebuilt, new suspension, upgraded brakes, replace the convertible top, paint and body...  I'd keep saying "yeup, that's all well and good" and then they'd say "I'm looking to spend about 15 to 20..."  I'd pause...  "15 to 20...  what?" I'd ask.  "Thousand - fifteen to twenty thousand."  I'd have to chuckle lightly and say, "sir, for the amount of work you just described, you won't spend a penny less than at LEAST one-hundred thousand dollars."  Now, mind you, I had been trained at WyoTech, done body work myself, and was working at a restoration shop with quite a few $100,000 jobs in progress, and these people would get mad at ME and tell me I had no idea what I was talking about.

Of course that line always lead to this line, "But the car isn't even worth that much!"

And that point I was instructed by my manager to give them the line from Snap-On magazine, as quoted by Jay Leno.  I'll bet big bucks Tony knows this one:

"If you build a car, and you do it right, and you make money off of it...

...you did something wrong."  -Jay Leno

I'm not taking sides here at all, but it's important to remember that there are two sides to every coin.

Jeff

the paying public may not have an idea about the cost involved, but isn't it part of the territory to do the quote, weather they have a clue or not? I think in the good times shops can be very arrogant. I do think in business, alot of the hard start up, build up the clients, gets removed when the business starts raking it in. I might hate to have to quote when I know it's going to be to pricey, but I have to.

 

[asm74]

"If you build a car, and you do it right, and you make money off of it...

...you did something wrong."  -Jay Leno

That's a good quote there, and I'm sure it's true.  As a relative newbie to the whole resto game, I am on the customer end of the body work relationship.  I went with the first body shop that I found that met this criteria:
1) the owner took an interest in the project
2) a clear estimate was handed to me, with the very clear caveat that "this estimate holds if we don't find anything else that needs to be addressed."  Of course, the body work on my car is already 2K over that estimate, but he showed me the issues etc.  and he didn't charge me for the time it took him to come in and explain it all.
3) constant communication, pictures, e-mail updates were made available
4) Only does restoration work, and knows mopars.

 When I was shopping, I felt like a collision place was not going be invested in doing a great job on my car, mostly because resto's arent their bread and butter.  Also, the "I know better than you" attitude was not helping people who were competing for my business.  But I don't doubt that most of them did know more about the job that had to be done than I did at the time.  In one case a potential shop rep kept shooting down every suggestion I was making, even down to saying "Naahhh you don't want to paint it THAT color."  Excuse me?

[ViperMan]

 When I was shopping, I felt like a collision place was not going be invested in doing a great job on my car, mostly because resto's arent their bread and butter.  Also, the "I know better than you" attitude was not helping people who were competing for my business.  But I don't doubt that most of them did know more about the job that had to be done than I did at the time.  In one case a potential shop rep kept shooting down every suggestion I was making, even down to saying "Naahhh you don't want to paint it THAT color."  Excuse me?

asm74, you've done the most important part - HOMEWORK.

There's a lot to be said about doing your homework and KNOWING what you're in store for.  These guys I mentioned get done watching an episode of Overhaulin' and grab the phonebook.  They have no idea.  They see a car get built in "one week" and go "Pssh, how hard can it be??!"

You're going to spend more than $50,000 to have a car restored - over $100,000 in many cases.  DO YOUR HOMEWORK!  Now I'm not saying the originator of this thread didn't, but you have to know what you're getting in to.  And yes, interview the shop, take a tour, see what kind of projects they're working on.  Ask for contact info for previous customers, etc.

Are there scammers out there?  Of course!!  Hell the guy I worked for got all excited when he found a motorcycle on ebay for an unbelievable price.  The auction dissapeared and the seller starts writing me about the bike being stored overseas, and my idiot boss is still going "Well where?  How can I get it?"  I'm shouting, "It's a SCAM, dumbass!!!"  But I KNEW the situation - I knew the signs, I knew how to research.  I finally convinced him to forget about it.

You HAVE to know what you're getting in to, and have to remain informed along the way.  You ask me anything about "Viper buying" right now and I'll talk your damned ear off.  I've been doing my homework and believe me - I'm prepared.

Jeff

[1ownr]

ok so we've decided to restore our cuda. Is it realistic to begin by pulling all the parts off to get the body media blasted and get an accurate price for body work and paint? Or do most Restoration Shops work with the whole car? Just looking for a point of reference before visiting a local shop.

[fishn4cuda]

ok so we've decided to restore our cuda. Is it realistic to begin by pulling all the parts off to get the body media blasted and get an accurate price for body work and paint? Or do most Restoration Shops work with the whole car? Just looking for a point of reference before visiting a local shop.

I recieve alot of cars totally dissassembled and media blasted. If you are an individual that can tear it down and reassemble it. Thats great. Just take tons of pics, parts bag, and label everything. Your car my be apart for a couple yrs. Reassembly and detail take alot of time as does the body/ steel work. Most resto shops charge by the hr and not by a quote. I usually try to give a customer a fair starting point cost. If they add to anything or we find a suprise and the customer wants it fixed, It usually costs more. I tell all my customers not to take short cuts on the body. Thats the part you only want to do once. All the parts and bright work can be repaired or replaced at anytime. I find that some guys go out and buy all the bling first and then don't have much or enough budgeted for the body.

[jrwoodjoe]

ok so we've decided to restore our cuda. Is it realistic to begin by pulling all the parts off to get the body media blasted and get an accurate price for body work and paint? Or do most Restoration Shops work with the whole car? Just looking for a point of reference before visiting a local shop.

The big question is...Do you feel comfortable (ie. have the time, patience and skills) to do the tear down and manage the media blast?  If you have the time, skill and desire to do that then it is a great way to go.  Just make sure you have a realistic expectation of the time involved. It may be a LONG while before you see the car together again, especially if you restore all the little pieces as you go. Just document, make notes, bag-n-tag and photograph everything along the way. With the car blasted, the bodyshop/resto shop "should" be able to give you a better estimate on the job. Not to mention that the more work you do yourself, the more money you can save. Paint and bodywork is the most important thing (not to mention costly) and something you only want to do once.

Joe

[bb71challenger]

Lot of great reading in this thread. To me 72NuBlu hit the nail on the head with what happened to your money. The shop used the money for other things so when it came time to do work on your car they felt like they were dipping into their own pocket. I hear totaly resto being tossed around a bunch but if I remember correctly the guy only wanted the body/paint done correct? I have never heard of a paint job costing as much as that shop wanted     already paid 10k and he still owed 4+9? 23k is a LOT of money for a paint job.

[hotrod98]

I also own a resto shop and would like to say that even after all these years, it's surprising as to how long it can take to just put a quarter panel on. In your mind, it should be about a 12 hour job, but in reality it takes much longer. Just setting the car on the fixture can take a couple of hours or more. Not to mention, the time to remove it from the fixture after the work is completed. 
Add to that any rust repair and next thing you know, it's taken three days to do a job that most people expect to be a days work at most.
I have my own shop at home and everything's paid for so I can charge less than the big shops with big overhead, but you're still looking at $320 or more a day in labor cost. That's a $1600+ a week or $6400 a month. You can't even do a simple disassemble and professional repaint in four weeks. I usually spend three or four days just wet sanding and buffing.
And remember, just because a shop is doing your car as a "filler" job, that doesn't mean that it will be cheaper. It's the same number of labor hours therefore the same dollars. Just spread out over years instead of months. I think that unless you're in no hurry, don't go that route. I say use a resto shop that doesn't even do insurance collision repair. That way your car won't be pushed to the back or worse yet, outside until they run out of insurance work. Ask them up front if your car will be a priority job.
Good luck.

[Moparal]

That sounds like some good advice hotrod98

[72bluNblu]

I also own a resto shop and would like to say that even after all these years, it's surprising as to how long it can take to just put a quarter panel on. In your mind, it should be about a 12 hour job, but in reality it takes much longer. Just setting the car on the fixture can take a couple of hours or more. Not to mention, the time to remove it from the fixture after the work is completed. 
Add to that any rust repair and next thing you know, it's taken three days to do a job that most people expect to be a days work at most.
I have my own shop at home and everything's paid for so I can charge less than the big shops with big overhead, but you're still looking at $320 or more a day in labor cost. That's a $1600+ a week or $6400 a month. You can't even do a simple disassemble and professional repaint in four weeks. I usually spend three or four days just wet sanding and buffing.
And remember, just because a shop is doing your car as a "filler" job, that doesn't mean that it will be cheaper. It's the same number of labor hours therefore the same dollars. Just spread out over years instead of months. I think that unless you're in no hurry, don't go that route. I say use a resto shop that doesn't even do insurance collision repair. That way your car won't be pushed to the back or worse yet, outside until they run out of insurance work. Ask them up front if your car will be a priority job.
Good luck.

I totally agree. Even if a job should only take 12 hours doesn't mean it will, and every car is different. Sometimes it takse 8, sometimes 24, just depends on the car. Especially if you're removing and fitting panels. People seem to think that because a car was built on an assembly line they are all the same, but that wasn't even true the day they rolled out of the plant, let alone 30-40 years later. This is why its hard to make a living restoring cars (believe me I know). Sometimes the bolts unscrew, sometimes they break, and sometimes you have to re-tap every thread on the car!

Don't get me wrong, this is still a horrible deal. 23k for a paint job is still insane, even with panel replacement. But its never easy, and more than anything else, bodywork and paint take time and a lot of it.

[cudagirl4406pk]

Well here is how my husband does it.He charges $40 a hour and after every 50 hours of work he sends a bill to the owner and no money up front.Also he sends a list of supplies to the owner and has  them by the supplies themselves and has them done thru mail order unless he needs something right away then he buys and charges in next bill.At anytime the person isnt happy they can take their car and only owe for hours worked not like losing a depoist and such.Take alot of hours to do a full restore on a car.People dont understand how long it takes when they watch tv shows and think it is all easy like on the tv.Not so alot of time and hours to make it right.My husband tells people that look to 30-35k with parts to do a full resto when your replaceing 1/4's and floors and trunks and such.Not always that much but always expect the worst.Especially when supplies are getting insane.People say to my husband how about a estimate and he tells them you can not be sure of what the car needs until it is stripped to bare metal to get a idea of what it needs.

michele