The more complete, more accurate story of the "Rafter T/A" in MCG

Author Topic: The more complete, more accurate story of the "Rafter T/A" in MCG  (Read 18195 times)

Alaskan_TA

  • Guest
Hey gang,
I have been asked about this a few times now. People that know me know that the article in MCG left out some details and in some places is just not accurate at all. I have not seen the actual article, but it was read to me over the phone.

MCG left out a key player in this story. It it were not for Dennis Drake contacting David, and Dennis then contacting me & getting me involved, Dave would not have the car today.

Richard Ehrenberger published a one page article on the car in Mopar Action. Richard was gracious enough to let me use the article as part of my story. The information below was originally published by myself in The Challenger T/A Registry Newsletter #12;

                     The Screaming Yellow Zonker!
Hello again all, this is a story of a yellow T/A, and it will take a while to spin this yarn, so make yourself some pop corn, grab an icy cold drink and find a comfortable chair and I’ll get started when you are ready. 
Our little tale begins back in July of 1970, when a young man by the name of Jeffery Deutsch had seen the advertisements for the new Challenger T/A and wanted to buy one, the only trouble was that none of the dealers in his area were getting any with the options he wanted, so he placed a call to Mr. Norms Grand Spaulding Dodge in Chicago. He told Norm that he wanted an orange T/A with a four speed and 3.91 gears, and Norm replied, “Kid, we have 50 or more of those things sitting here, just fly out and pick one out”. Jeffery called up a pal by the name of David Bagwin and asked him to come along on the trip and help drive it back, this was on a Friday and Jeffery had to be back to work the following Monday morning. David’s parents would not let him go, and he still regrets it. We will be hearing more about David a little later though….

When Jeffery found out that David could not make it, he called another pal named Richard Ehrenberg, some of you know Rich as “E-booger”, the owner and driver of the “Green Brick” and as the past Tech Editor of High Performance Mopar and as the current Engineering Editor of Mopar Action. Yup, Jeffery knew him before the rest of us ever even heard of him.
Rich was able to make the trip, but it is not known at this time if he had parental permission.
The two youngsters left LaGuardia International Airport on Friday night, arrived in Chicago fairly late and rented a 1970 Coronet and drove to their hotel. They arrived at Mr. Norms' lot the next morning, and sure enough, there were so many T/As there that some were parked on the street and more were across the street in another lot! Jeffery spotted a Go Mango orange one with a four speed, black interior, and a black vinyl top, sat down with the salesman and struck a deal. As part of the deal, headers were to be installed at the dealership, and this is where the tale takes a twist.

The papers were signed, the car paid for, (  $ 3709.00 ) and the car went up on the lift for the service department to install the headers. Young Rich elected to stay in the car during this process, and he remembers admiring all the funny car bodies hanging from the ceiling at the time. For some reason, he reached over and spun the steering wheel, uh-oh! 3.5 turns lock to lock? According to the ads, the T/As were supposed to have the fast ratio steering with only 2.7 turns lock to lock. Rich yelled down to Jeffery that they had a problem, he knew that Jeffery had wanted the fast ratio box. The sales staff pointed out that not all of them did come with the fast ratio steering, but if he had to have it, that surely there was another orange car on the lot with it. The search was on, but it proved fruitless. They did find another T/A with the four speed, 3:91 gears and fast ratio power steering, but it was yellow! Jeffery wanted the steering more than the orange paint, so money again changed hands and another deal was struck. This one in addition to the fast ratio steering also had the salt and pepper cloth seat upholstery, (H5X9) AM -8track radio, rear speakers and the  Rallye cluster, so the price went up an additional $285.00, and the Go Mango T/A went back out to the sales lot. More on this car later as well. 
So, on July 11, 1970 Jeffery bought TWO Mr. Norms T/As, how cool is that? By the time the second car was found and the deal made, it had grown late and there was no longer time to have the headers installed, so they were placed in the trunk to be put on once they arrived back in NY.
The two boys left for New York, but Richard has already published the story, which is reprinted here with his permission. I will take up the tale again where he leaves off……..

                             
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009 - 08:24:43 PM by Alaskan_TA »




Alaskan_TA

  • Guest
Re: The more complete, more accurate story of the "Rafter T/A" in MCG
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2008 - 02:07:41 PM »
 Richard's original story;

THE WAY IT WAS
It was late spring, 1970. I was happily cruising the streets of New York City in my 1965 Valiant with a fresh 340 4-speed, 3.90 gear drivetrain. Tweaked as it was, with a D-Dart cam and a few tricks, it impressed competitors and traveling companions alike.
A frequent companion was a buddy by the name of Jeff Duetsch. Jeff was a recording technician for Columbia Records in Manhattan. His daily commuter, a 1966 ‘Cuda Formula S, was getting a bit ragged around the edges. When Jeff and I caught wind of the new Challenger T/As, we about flipped. I was down on bucks, but Jeff just had to have one, the sooner the better. He knew exactly how he wanted the car too, Orange, 4-speed, 3.9 gears and fast ratio power steering.
When we visited local dealerships, we got a rude awakening. We could not order a T/A to our specs. Nobody could. What you saw on the floor was it, like it or not. Even worse, each dealer seemed to have one or none in stock!
At this point in time, the windy city dealership of Mr. Norm, Grand Spaulding Dodge, had built a nationwide reputation for being the “in” place for Mopar muscle. A quick call to Mr. Norm confirmed what we’d hoped: they had like fifty T/As in stock, better yet, they’d dyno-tune the car of our choice, install headers, etc., while we waited!

Friday evening, we hopped a westbound 727 to Chicago. Once there, we slid into an Avis rent-a-318-Coronet and checked into the cheapest fleabag we could find. Unable to sleep, we cruised over to Mr. Norm’s. It was even better than our wildest dreams, musclecars everywhere, and, sure enough, in the lot across the street were at least 50 T/As.
Early the next morning, we met with Marvin Rader, the sales manager, who, even though he didn’t know us from Adam, treated us cordially. Jeff picked out a car that fulfilled his desires exactly, right down to the color. The rest of the day was spent hanging around the shop while Mr. Norms techs tweaked and tuned our ride, installed the chin spoilers and exhaust megaphones (which were in the trunk), and welding up the header’s collectors to the stock exhaust system.
At about 3:30 pm, I was sitting in the car, up on the lift, while the guys finished the under car details. It was then that I made a sad discovery: The steering wheel could be turned 3.6 turns lock to lock. It seems that everybody had assumed that all T/As with power steering automatically received the fast-ratio 2.6-turn gearbox. We picked a lousy time to find out we had been misinformed.
Rejecting the car, we scrambled to search Mr. Norm’s inventory anew. Out of the 50 or so cars, we found only one with the 4-speed, fast-ratio power steering and 3.90 gears. Unfortunately, it was yellow, and Jeff wanted orange in the worst way. After an hour or more of arm twisting, he succumbed to the pressure and signed on the dotted line for the banana beast.
We wound up leaving for New York, Saturday night with a set of headers, the exhaust tips, and front spoilers still stashed in the trunk.
Nonetheless, it was an exiting ride. First off, we had absolutely no license plates. We wore legal Illinois’ temporary registration being properly affixed to the corner of the windshield. Once we were out of Illinois, though, we got some strange looks.
After a 500 mile “take-it-easy” break-in, the rest of the trip, through Ohio and Pennsylvania was balls-to-the-wall. A New Jersey cop, in particular, didn’t like the Screamin’ Yellow Zonker blasting through his small town at three times the posed speed rate. He was going the opposite way, though, and as they say in the songs, “We left the cop’s head spinnin’ ‘round and ‘round.”
So, where is the Challenger today? Right where it belongs, thank you - in Jeff’s garage, with something like 50,000 miles on the clock, and a full-boogie restoration just being completed.
By the way, no, he didn’t paint it orange.              --Richard Ehrenberg

Alaskan_TA

  • Guest
Re: The more complete, more accurate story of the "Rafter T/A" in MCG
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2008 - 02:08:50 PM »

Time passes and……. For whatever reason, the full boogie restoration never materialized. The car had been hit once from behind, the driver’s side door was damaged and the front fender tore most of the way off. The car was repaired and repainted at that time, and it hit the streets again. At some point the engine blew as well, and that necessitated that one cylinder be sleeved, and there are a few surviving Polaroid photos that show a later model 360 with a Thermo-quad between the fender wells, this engine was likely installed while the original was out for repairs. The car at this time was residing in the Bagwin Brothers (David and Mike Bagwin) shop in Long Island City, NY. They did a lot of work on the car for Jeffery over the years, including the collision damage and repaint. There were a few patches put in at that time as well, the NYC streets are not kind. I mentioned that we would be hearing more about David Bagwin, and now you know that the car hung out at the Bagwin Brother ‘s shop, in this case, quite literally, check out this photo.
 
This shows the T/A literally “hanging out” at the Bagwin’s, Jeffery had them start what was probably the “full boogie restoration” on it, and he apparently lost interest after it was started. When the payments were not made on the work performed, Jeffery and David had a bit of a falling out, and the car was hung from the rafters out of the way in late 1985 or early 1986.
Fast forward to February 2004. David is having some health issues, and wants to sell the shop and retire down Florida way. The car has to go, even if it is one piece at a time, so to test the waters he places the grille on Ebay, and mentions that he will be listing other T/A parts later, the whole car, one piece at a time. One of our Registry members from Wisconsin, Dennis Drake got in touch with David and got the story on the car, restoration started, money due, have to move, etc, etc. Dennis got his phone number, called him and tried to convince him to not part it out. Dennis called me as well with David’s phone number and I talked to him as well, so with a little gentle arm twisting from Dennis and myself, we were able to convince him to sell it all together. The parts had scattered to the far corners of the shop over the years, but David promised to try and find them all and keep me posted. He also got a hold of Jeffery, they smoothed over their differences and both agreed to sell the car, and that David would get the money due to him and that Jeffery would get the remainder. I asked David if he would like me to try and find him a buyer, as I usually know a few folks looking, and he said that was fine, so I did. 
The Gypsy
I have to backtrack just a little here to keep the story line straight, if you were at Carlisle  last year and strolled thorough the “Survivor” tent then you may have met the owner of “The Gypsy”, Dave Tweedy. The Gypsy started life as a normal T/A, but was turned into a factory backed race car by the original owner, Ray Montgomery. MCG subscribers may remember the story on it, but that car has so much history that they just covered  most of the high points. The car had just 2857 original miles on it, and Dave was very fortunate to have been able to buy it, but he was really after a “normal” T/A that he could drive on the street AND show. He was calling me ever so often and asking if I knew of a 4-speed T/A for sale in orange or Green Go, and I did not, but he was first on my list after I got of the phone with Dave Bagwin. (Since we now have a Dave and a David in the story, I will refer to them as Bagwin and Tweedy from here on) So, I called Tweedy and told him that I had found his car, but there was a “catch”, it was yellow. He did not sound too exited at first, but I had already called Larry Wiener and found out that he did indeed have the Mr. Norms paperwork available for the car, and told him some of the history that Bagwin had told me, all of which was backed up in full a day or two later by Rich Ehrenberg. The more I talked, the more interested Tweedy got. He called Bagwin and got the details, at this time we did not know for sure if the numbers matched, where the dash assembly with the VIN tag was or if the fender tags or a broadcast sheet was there. The Bagwin’s shop is BIG, and the car had been apart for nearly 20 years, so it took some digging. The seats were found first, and a matching broadcast sheet was found in the passenger side bucket seat back. The dash pad with Rallye cluster and VIN tag were found intact about a week later, and other large parts like the K member and front suspension parts were located. When Tweedy had contacted Bagwin, they had agreed to a conditional price based on Bagwin’s description being accurate, and that the VIN tag, broadcast sheet, body numbers, engine and transmission numbers all matched. As the parts were found and numbers checked it all looked good. Due to personal circumstances and other commitments, Tweedy had to wait a couple weeks before heading out to NY with his trailer to finalize the deal and bring it home. He mentioned to me that “If you get a wild hair and would like to come along…” I said “yes!” and within 20 minutes his wife Vicki had arranged for my airline tickets!  So, I was on my way to NYC for the first time ever!
I flew into LaGuardia and took a cab to the hotel, which turned out to be within 300 feet or less of the Bagwin’s shop. I arrived about ten minutes after Tweedy, who towed his trailer out from Idaho. Tweedy had already met with Bagwin, and I was introduced to him at that time. This is the first photo I took on arriving in his shop;
 
In the photo above, you can see the bucket seat that the broadcast sheet was found in and one fender hanging from the wall in front of the car. I arrived in NYC at 9:30 PM, and Tweedy had been driving the better part of three days, but we elected to stay in the shop most of the night rounding up the parts that had not been located yet. Bagwin gave us full use of his shop and tools also, we had already decided that the best way to ship the car was to re-assemble it as much as possible, so we bolted the engine to the K-member, trans to engine and re-installed them as an assembly the next day once the car was down from the rafters.
 After all the parts searching, we retired to the hotel for about three hours of sleep, than back to the shop for more. This photo was taken about 10am on Saturday morning, we had located the torsion bars, all the inside and outside trim, and boxes of small parts by this time, these are the same two guys taking the car down that put it up there so many hears ago.  Richard is in front of the forklift and I neglected to get the forklift drivers name.
More photos to follow of our progress………


 
 
 Tweedy, Bagwin and I, were we having fun? Oh yeah! 
 
Not a bad days work for after only three hours of sleep!

Alaskan_TA

  • Guest
Re: The more complete, more accurate story of the "Rafter T/A" in MCG
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2008 - 02:09:24 PM »
The  Mr. Norm’s Go Mango T/A
Here are some more details on the “first” T/A that Jeffery bought that day. While the whole trip was a blur for Dave and me, he had purchased the dealer file for the yellow T/A from Larry Weiner after I had told him it was available and I had not had a chance to view it.  The day we left NY we stopped for breakfast at a Cracker Barrel and Dave pulled out a copy of the dealer file he had made for me before leaving Idaho. There was a sales sheet in there on the Go Mango car, because it was turned back in to the lot - and I recognized the VIN right away, it was JH23J0B304122. I recognized it because I had the fender tag back home in my office! The tag is from a car that had been parted out and most likely crushed in Ohio years ago, the tag was sent to me by a Registry member by the name of John Marquette.
In an odd set of circumstances, I had called John to let him know his T/A also had  sold new at Mr. Norms and that he could call Larry and claim his paperwork just about a month prior to all this! John’s T/A was originally delivered to Aurora Dodge also in Illinois, but Mr. Norm received it and some others from Aurora Dodge in some sort of inter-dealer trade on July 12, 1970, the day after Jeffery and Rich left the dealership. It is kind of crazy how so many things overlap in this whole story. 

Update from Mr. Norm
I was able to speak to Mr. Norm at Carlisle again this year, and I asked him if he knew how many T/As he sold at his dealership. He said “Over 400!” he thinks he has records of all the VINs somewhere, so I hope he can find them! 

Alaskan_TA

  • Guest
Re: The more complete, more accurate story of the "Rafter T/A" in MCG
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2008 - 02:12:14 PM »
More info on the orange T/A taht Jeffery refused, this is from my newsletter #19;

The further adventures of JH23J0B304122

  Back in newsletter #12, we covered the story on Dave Tweedy’s Mr. Norms T/A, “The Screamin’ Yellow Zonker”. As part of the story we mentioned that the original owner had bought another car earlier that day and had turned it back in to the lot when his buddy Rich Ehrenberger noticed that it did not have fast ratio power steering. To do a brief recap, the first car Jeffery bought that day was 304122. The car was found in a Ohio salvage yard completely stripped back in the ‘80s, a registry member spotted it years ago and let me know it was crushed. He even gave me the fender tag from it. While looking through the records from Mr. Norms, I came across the dealer jacket for the same car. It has Jeffery’s name on the front, but it was crossed out when he refused the car. The car finally sold to another owner on 9-5-1970, to Carlos Ledesma. Vasquez, he traded in his red and white 1960 Buick 2-door hardtop for a $700.00 down payment.  I would have too. 


On a related note, Dave’s Screamin’ Yellow Zonker restoration is finally done except for a few small details. It made its debut at the Seattle show in July, and it will be at the Gresham Oregon show this month as well.







I will see about adding some photos here as well, stand by......

Alaskan_TA

  • Guest
Re: The more complete, more accurate story of the "Rafter T/A" in MCG
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2008 - 02:21:29 PM »
David Bagwin photos - Dave Tweedy in car, myself with the engine mated back to the k-member (before I got too dirty, more on this later) and getting ready to bring the car down;


Alaskan_TA

  • Guest
Re: The more complete, more accurate story of the "Rafter T/A" in MCG
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2008 - 02:27:51 PM »
My photos - Getting ready to lower the car onto the K-frame, David with Dave- K-member with engine installed & beginning to look like a car again;


Alaskan_TA

  • Guest
Re: The more complete, more accurate story of the "Rafter T/A" in MCG
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2008 - 02:29:57 PM »
Another Bagwin photo, after a hard day at the "office".

Alaskan_TA

  • Guest
Re: The more complete, more accurate story of the "Rafter T/A" in MCG
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2008 - 02:38:47 PM »
The three amigos, the car is finally ready to load into Dave's trailer;


Alaskan_TA

  • Guest
Re: The more complete, more accurate story of the "Rafter T/A" in MCG
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2008 - 02:43:25 PM »
The same car all done (and with cleaner people  :naughty: ) at this link;

http://www.challengertaregistry.com/photos/members_cars/norms_ta_103.jpg

 :bigsmile:


Offline plumcrazy704406

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 732
Re: The more complete, more accurate story of the "Rafter T/A" in MCG
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2008 - 02:52:33 PM »
really neat story. thx for sharing

 :canada:
This thought may not be politically correct, but is an opinion offered. It may be correct? or it may be wrong? It is not designed to appease those needing shelter from the real world.

Offline MEK-Dangerfield

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 20946
  • I don't get NO respect! Member since 1/25/2002
Re: The more complete, more accurate story of the "Rafter T/A" in MCG
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2008 - 02:55:32 PM »
Thanks Barry!!    :2thumbs:

Mike

1970 Challenger - SOLD
2016 SXT+.  1 of 524 SXT+'s in Plumb-crazy for 2016.

Offline 67vertman

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 5125
  • Member since 9-23-2005
Re: The more complete, more accurate story of the "Rafter T/A" in MCG
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2008 - 03:25:57 PM »
I love these types of stories.  :2thumbs:

Thanks for sharing Barry.  :cooldancing:



Ron - Born and raised in Southern California

I got the 1970 Cuda, but still need the hot blonde to ride shotgun!

First car -1969 Road Runner 383 4sp

Current ride - 1970 Barracuda 440-6 4 sp Dana 60  (4:10)

Offline back n black

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1014
Re: The more complete, more accurate story of the "Rafter T/A" in MCG
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2008 - 03:39:43 PM »
Life for this T/A is looking way better now! :2thumbs:

Offline heminut

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2023
  • owner of the poor man's Hemi Cuda
Re: The more complete, more accurate story of the "Rafter T/A" in MCG
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2008 - 03:43:54 PM »
Great story Barry, thanks for taking the time to post it! :2thumbs:
1970 5.7 Hemi Cuda