Author Topic: Keith Black Pistons  (Read 10477 times)

Offline bb71challenger

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Re: Keith Black Pistons
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2008 - 12:56:19 PM »
It's just an old wives tail that won't die that you have to have forged pistons or you sacrifice performance and reliability. All the Chrysler muscle car motors with 100K+ miles that had them stock (including the new Hemis) are proof of their strength. And if you run your motor into Detonation you might as well just beat on it with hammers. That'll kill your rings and bearings way before it kills a good cast piston.  :2cents: 

I agree, not only that but if your engine is detonating it will destroy forged pistons almost as fast as cast ones.
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Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Keith Black Pistons
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2008 - 04:06:59 PM »
I agree as well But Factory cast pistons used a Steel liner / skeleton inside them so most cast pistons are not as good as cast , ,the other issue which seems to invariably arise is after building the engine sooner or later most people want more power which could mean changing the pistons , I just overbuild every bottom end so it can do more later on as the difference in piston cost is less than th egasket set to tear the engine down
 For example I built a 440 for my 4X4 truck & used cast Speed Pro pistons later when I sold the truck I pulled the 440 being basically brand new & replaced it with a good running 440 & got the price of the truck down to what the buyer wanted to pay for ti , I then sold the 440 & it went into a rail dragster , no teardown was needed just a cam heads & intake swap 

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Offline 71chally416

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Re: Keith Black Pistons
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2008 - 06:48:51 PM »
The $80 PAW Badger pistons I had in my old 318 had the same metal expansion limiters casted into them that the stockers had, but I don't know if all cast pistons do. Mine saw 7,000 rpm many times and even a small shot of Nitrous for a month. I've seen warnings for some forged pistons that cost $500+ a set that they aren't for use with lots of nitrous or boost over 5 psi, so in all cases what you use depends on your application. For any N/A Mopar engine that won't see over 6,500 or anything more than a small shot of the hose I'd use them anytime.

Of course if you have a billet crank, BME aluminum rods and a $3,000 race block you're also going to use the best pistons, like some Venolia's.
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Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Keith Black Pistons
« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2008 - 04:15:45 AM »
Badgers were one of the best pistons for the $ out there , I do not believe Badger is available anymore , most cast do not have the steel liner

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Offline moper

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Re: Keith Black Pistons
« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2008 - 09:57:50 AM »
AMX, they have grooves to help with holding heat in. The alloy is better at being "thermally stable" and the design reflects heat of combustion. Leat that's how I understand it. Also, it slows the heat of combustion soaking into the whole piston. (we are talking the immediate combustion event, it's not like they don't get hot...) If heat can be transferred to the whole piston, it will be dissipated by the oil splashed around there. But any heat "given away" by soaking into the material is energy lost or wasted from the combustion event. That's the theory behind coating the piston tops and chambers and exh ports with thermal barrier stuff. In any event, the design does not promote detonation by it's shape, but helps stop it by the material and shape.

The down side of that alloy is the heat that is focussed on that top ring. Its room for the ring to expand that you need to "build in". The piston itself basically does not expand itself due to the alloy. Typical piston to wall is 1/2 or less compared to good forged.

Good forged also do not rattle. Diamond, CP, J&E, WISECO, and Ross are all good in terms of staying quiet. TRWs, Speed Pro, basically the older designs are not and they may be noisey when cold started. The factory cast as 71 and CP have said are a very durable design. They are very beefy, and the expansion limiters are so they can be run tight as compared to most original cast pistons from that era. The Hypereutectics regardless of manufacturer are all cast. But the alloy is much, much different in every case from the old cast stuff. Much lighter, much stronger, and much more thermally stable. I ran 175hp NOS and 320hp on factory cast pistons for yeas. It hit 7200 once or twice by mistake. But, i ended up blowing the ring lands off two pistons because I got stuck and had to run a nice old lady's 10 yr old lawn mower gas. I pinging for 4 miles basically 100 % of the time, and they broke during that drive.

Detonation will not break things by heat. It's the pressure waves created that are not always audible. If an engine detonates it is like a hammer blow from the chamber to the crank throw. Everything is hit very sharply, and that is where the brittle part of hypereutectics come into play. They are like tool steel. Tools will break before they bend. Forged pistons are elastic compared to cast. Cast are elastic compared to hypers. So when a spike from detonation hits the top of a cast piston, it tends to flex a little and can do that for a decent length of time. When it hits a forged, the piston doesnt flex much, but enough, and it's much stronger to beign with. So it's not a big deal to the piston.. It can still wreck rigns and bearings, and eventually can crack blocks and walk main caps around. But the piston can take it. On a hyper, that pressure wave hits, and the thing can deal with it for a little while without flexing because it's strong. But eventually, it simply fractures like brittle tool steel. On a running engine at say, 4000 rpm, and it detonates steady for a 10 second time frame, thats over 2500 hammer blows in 10 seconds... and that's only 4K rpm for 10 seconds.

Offline lemming303

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Re: Keith Black Pistons
« Reply #35 on: November 08, 2008 - 06:51:21 PM »
Holy crap dude that's a lot of info! I never had any idea of the differences before, but this is also my first car build/first engine build and so on. I've learned a lot from this site. It's a lot better than the one I was on before. Thanks for all info from everyone.

So, what forged pistons would ya'll recommend in a 416 stroker? I plan to get it around 500-550 hp, no nitrous or boost, and I plan to drive it at the strip as often as I can. Thanks again.
Kevin

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Offline CannTankerous

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Re: Keith Black Pistons
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2008 - 09:13:26 PM »
[quote author=71chally416
The $80 PAW Badger pistons I had in my old 318 had the same metal expansion limiters casted into them that the stockers had, but I don't know if all cast pistons do. Mine saw 7,000 rpm many times and even a small shot of Nitrous for a month. I've seen warnings for some forged pistons that cost $500+ a set that they aren't for use with lots of nitrous or boost over 5 psi, so in all cases what you use depends on your application. For any N/A Mopar engine that won't see over 6,500 or anything more than a small shot of the hose I'd use them anytime.

Of course if you have a billet crank, BME aluminum rods and a $3,000 race block you're also going to use the best pistons, like some Venolia's.

Hey Chally, yeah, I had some of those in my budget 383 a long time ago, and they even took an occasional shot shot of N2O with no problems and then when I upgraded that engine they went into a even more budget 383 for my '69 D200 because I was cheap, cheap, cheap! Or perhaps financially challenged at the time is more like it. They had the expansion limiters and gave good service for the cost.

Offline CannTankerous

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Re: Keith Black Pistons
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2008 - 09:26:19 PM »
[quote author=lemming303
Holy crap dude that's a lot of info! I never had any idea of the differences before, but this is also my first car build/first engine build and so on. I've learned a lot from this site. It's a lot better than the one I was on before.

Hey, I heard there was at least one dude over there that wasn't too bad. I figured somebody ought to have your back. But yep, don't see the need as much on this site or I'd do the same here. Lots of good info from lots of sharp guys. If you don't get a few more answers to the piston Q I'll look at your combo more. You said you were not a motorhead. Man, I've never seen someone who was not a motorhead ask so many questions about pistons, camshafts and engine theory in general. Quit lieing to yourself and just admit the truth, motorhead! You have no idea how far you have already been sucked into the black hole which claims us all! Don't bother trying to save yourself though-just enjoy the ride, man.

Offline 71chally416

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Re: Keith Black Pistons
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2008 - 09:40:33 PM »
Holy crap dude that's a lot of info! I never had any idea of the differences before, but this is also my first car build/first engine build and so on. I've learned a lot from this site. It's a lot better than the one I was on before. Thanks for all info from everyone.

So, what forged pistons would ya'll recommend in a 416 stroker? I plan to get it around 500-550 hp, no nitrous or boost, and I plan to drive it at the strip as often as I can. Thanks again.

I used the 360+ .070" KB cast stroker pistons (which are the same as 340+ .030" which they do not list) but I don't know who makes them in forged or where you buy them. I got mine from Summit racing. You must get the correct compression height for a stroker motor as the pin is higher on the piston than it is on a 340 so a 340 type piston will stick out the deck .69" (4"- 3.31") 
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Offline lemming303

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Re: Keith Black Pistons
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2008 - 10:40:37 PM »
Hey, I heard there was at least one dude over there that wasn't too bad. I figured somebody ought to have your back. But yep, don't see the need as much on this site or I'd do the same here. Lots of good info from lots of sharp guys. If you don't get a few more answers to the piston Q I'll look at your combo more. You said you were not a motorhead. Man, I've never seen someone who was not a motorhead ask so many questions about pistons, camshafts and engine theory in general. Quit lieing to yourself and just admit the truth, motorhead! You have no idea how far you have already been sucked into the black hole which claims us all! Don't bother trying to save yourself though-just enjoy the ride, man.

lol yeah, that's true. I ask a lot of questions because I'm trying to teach myself. I never said I wasn't a motorhead, just that I didn't know anything. I have friends helping me and ya'll on here as well.

I understand about the different pin positions. It makes sense. But hopefully when my block checks out at the machinist I won't have to do anything to it for a while, just hone it out. That way I can get the car running first.
Kevin

73 Challenger Rallye - first project

Offline wally426ci

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Re: Keith Black Pistons
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2008 - 06:56:44 AM »
I don't consider myself a motorhead either.... I always hate when someone asks me what my Cam size is.... I never memorize that stuff, and it winds up making me look like I don't know about my own car...... I try to ask a good deal of questions here so I can understand more...

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Offline black71

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Re: Keith Black Pistons
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2008 - 01:35:25 PM »
so is there a good where one can learn about cam basics, there the one part of a motor that i have never been able to quite grasp... i mean obviously i know what they do but when i look at cam specs i'm confused!

Offline lemming303

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Re: Keith Black Pistons
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2008 - 03:54:44 PM »
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/148_0405_camshaft_terms_guide/index.html

This is where I learned the basics about cams. I know its a chevy site, I just looked up about cams on google and that's what I found. It helped me understand a lot more. I would read it, then after you have been looking at cams for a little bit you can go back and re-read it and get a little more out of it.
Kevin

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Offline black71

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Re: Keith Black Pistons
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2008 - 07:11:56 PM »
right on great info thanks!    :bigsmile:

Offline moprr

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Re: Keith Black Pistons
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2008 - 07:20:31 PM »
I've got kb pistons in a 340 no problems yet has about 10,000 on them.  The guy who built my motor uses them all the time and loves them.