Anyone running 1.12" Torsion Bars in their Ebody???? How you like them?

[72bluNblu]

Not sure about what index FFI uses, but based on the adjustability I would say its the stock 30 degree offset. This inherently puts a little twist in the bar. If you look at the t-bars on Just Suspension they mention that they use a 0 degree offset, allowing the car to sit lower and retain some of the adjustability. Only works with the larger bars though. Although the only t-bars I see offered at JS are 1.08". From what I understand too it doesn't matter what the orientation of the bar is. Keep in mind too that the 5.7 hemi and transmission to go with it will weigh more than the sb 318 and 904 I have, so that will definitely help your cause on both ride height and quality.

[HP2]

I wonder if there is any way to turn your bars around and index the lower control arm differently to give it more adjustability??? 

Sort of, but not by turning the bars around as the hex index is the same from end to end. The larger mopar bars, the closer to ride height you need to install the lower control arm/t-bar to have much ride height adjustability left in them, and even then it is limited compared to the smaller sized bars. In the Oval Track Book they even say that is your setting the car up for reduced ride height and using large t-bars you need to cut out the t-bar anchors and re-index them at zero offset and weld them back in.

I've always thought they are symetrical, but it may be possible... what do y'all think?

I don't think that would work. The hex offset is what differentiates the right and left sides so swapping them from sides would actually create a double offset in the wrong direction. So you would have to really crank in the adjuster to get ride height back.

[PlumCrazyChris]

Not sure about what index FFI uses, but based on the adjustability I would say its the stock 30 degree offset. This inherently puts a little twist in the bar. If you look at the t-bars on Just Suspension they mention that they use a 0 degree offset, allowing the car to sit lower and retain some of the adjustability. Only works with the larger bars though. Although the only t-bars I see offered at JS are 1.08". From what I understand too it doesn't matter what the orientation of the bar is. Keep in mind too that the 5.7 hemi and transmission to go with it will weigh more than the sb 318 and 904 I have, so that will definitely help your cause on both ride height and quality.

Actually the 5.7 hemi weighs less then the smallblock by some 40lbs.  They'd probably be about the same if the LA was dressed out with aluminum heads and intake.   The trans definately weighs more, but I don't remember by how much.  I think we figured it out in a different thread about putting a 518 in an Ebody.    So it probably evens out, but gives a better weight distribution. 

Engine Weight's

Slant Six 475
273-340 "A" V8 525
360 "A" 550
361-383-400 V8 620
413-426W-440 V8 670
Street Hemi 765
INDY MAXX AL engine - 528CI - 470 lbs assembled

This is really good info about torsions bars, it would be good to keep it, if we could.  How do we get these threads archived? 

Sounds like the zero index JS Tbars at 1.08 might be the ticket to keep my adjustability for my lower ride height. 

Well, I need to go and get my rearend changed out.   

Chris

[72bluNblu]

So I finally got the brakes taken care of today and got in some drive time. Was able to get about 60 miles on the car  , and although I didn't get any pictures (too dark now) I can say that the ride height is pretty much what it was before I changed the bars. At the moment, with my 225/60/15's there's about 1" between the top of the tire and the bottom of the fender lip. So I went from ~27 turns in on the stock bars to ~1.5 turns in on the new ones for the same ride height   . Needless to say, if you want your car much lower in the front than stock I would say your best bet would be the zero index bars from JS. Too bad really, since the ride on the 1.12's is great. I'd almost consider going to the 1.18's. Its definitely stiff, but as I mentioned earlier its still not as harsh a ride as the dodge srt-4 I used to drive (upgraded coilovers with 352 lb springs). I still have KYB shocks in there though, so I should be able to tune it up a little more with some QA1's when I save up the cash.

On another note, are there any serious consequences to removing the t-bar adjusters altogether? I suspect the t-bars will sag a little more still with mileage (my xhd springs certainly have sagged a bunch in the last couple of months!  ), but I doubt I'll get much more than 1/2" lower with sag. Is there any reason that the adjusters have to be in there?

[Chryco Psycho]

well yes , the lever has to press against something & the ball on the end of the adjuster & cup in the lever need to seat together , + without the bolt the nut / cross piece in the LCA has nothing to reatin it so hit a bump & it could drop out casing the lever to have nothing to push against

[autoxcuda]

well yes , the lever has to press against something & the ball on the end of the adjuster & cup in the lever need to seat together , + without the bolt the nut / cross piece in the LCA has nothing to reatin it so hit a bump & it could drop out casing the lever to have nothing to push against

Have you talked to Firm Feel about this yet?

I've seen guys run without them the adjuster bolts. When you have the shocks on and you lift the car, does the adjuster get loose if you pulled the adjuster nut out? If it doesn't and you still have pre load you are fine.

If it does get loose I guess it could rattle if that wheel is off the ground (like you are airborne). There are indentations in the cross piece to hold it side to side. Of course you had a the ball and cup setup that got loose when the wheel was at full extension that could rattle out too. But the distance the cup covers the ball would help hold it side to side.

[72bluNblu]

I haven't talked to FFI, although I think I will make that call on Monday. Right now I still have tension on the adjusters with the wheels off the ground, I wanted to find out more on the subject before I did anything more than that, doesn't seem right for them to be in there and loose.

The lever is attached to the t-bar socket, so when you turn the adjusters it changes the angle of the LCA with regard to the pivot, setting the road height. I've been told it doesn't affect the loading of the t-bars, otherwise the ride quality would change as you changed the adjusters.

But I'm thinking there has to be tension on the lever to keep the LCA and the lever tied together, otherwise the lever isn't connected to the motion of the LCA anymore. Then the LCA would be able to pivot around the t bar socket, which would pretty much take the torsion bars out of the system right? Which would mean the adjusters have to stay in with a little tension on them...

I think I just answered my own question, should really think more about this stuff before I post up...

[autoxcuda]

I haven't talked to FFI, although I think I will make that call on Monday. Right now I still have tension on the adjusters with the wheels off the ground, I wanted to find out more on the subject before I did anything more than that, doesn't seem right for them to be in there and loose.

The lever is attached to the t-bar socket, so when you turn the adjusters it changes the angle of the LCA with regard to the pivot, setting the road height. I've been told it doesn't affect the loading of the t-bars, otherwise the ride quality would change as you changed the adjusters.

Correct. It just changes the ride height. Same thing as sitting on a big coil spring. If you put a block under your butt the coil spring has the same rate, but you just elevated yourself.

But I'm thinking there has to be tension on the lever to keep the LCA and the lever tied together, otherwise the lever isn't connected to the motion of the LCA anymore. Then the LCA would be able to pivot around the t bar socket, which would pretty much take the torsion bars out of the system right? Which would mean the adjusters have to stay in with a little tension on them...

Yes, there is tension. When the car's weight in on the T-bar the adjuster arm puts the weight on the cross piece.

[PlumCrazyChris]

But I'm thinking there has to be tension on the lever to keep the LCA and the lever tied together, otherwise the lever isn't connected to the motion of the LCA anymore. Then the LCA would be able to pivot around the t bar socket, which would pretty much take the torsion bars out of the system right? Which would mean the adjusters have to stay in with a little tension on them...

I think your right about that.  My first car was a challenger, and it had the adjuster screws backed all the way out and the hex's were sheared off, I had no way to adjust it.  The front sat on the bumpstops, it was basically metal to metal.  The only suspension there was were the tires.   But I drove it for a year that way, so I don't think there was any safety issue with anything coming apart.   

If it was me, I'd try to re-index them somehow.  Jack up the LCA and try to get it one more notch around the hex.  Switch them side to side or something...    If you can't make it work, then they really are defective and you should try to get your money back. 

Where did you say you bought them??

[72bluNblu]

Ok, so far this is making sense.

So basically I'm pretty close to being maxed out for lowering my car. The adjusters have to stay to keep the lever and the LCA tied together, and I have about a turn of adjustment left, since really I only need the ball to be in contact with the cup when the wheels are in the air, since it will have more tension on it as soon as I lower the car onto its wheels. I suppose it could even just be in the cup, instead of in contact with the bottom of the cup, but then I would risk the lever slamming back into the adjuster if I managed to completely unload my suspension while driving somehow right?

I think what I'll do is add a jam nut onto the adjuster bolt (piece of mind considering there isn't a whole lot of threads left or a ton of tension on the adjustor bolt) and then just thread the adjusters in so that they just barely make contact with the bottom of the cup in the lever. That way if I unload the suspension I shouldn't have to worry about the lever impacting the adjustor bolt or the adjuster coming out of the cup...

And if I really want to lower the car anymore than that I'll have to reindex the torsion bar anchor by cutting it out and re-welding it at 0 degrees or by stepping down to the zero indexed 1.09" bars from JS, right? (Provided of course I don't already have zero degree indexed bars)

The bars are 1.12's from Firm Feel. Based on what I've learned since I bought them I don't think there's anything wrong with the bars, other than they're so big they end up being at the limit for the stock suspension geometry. I'll put a call into FFI on Monday, since I really don't even know that these bars aren't zero indexed already. I suspect they're at the stock 30 degree offset, but I didn't ask (didn't realize I'd have this problem!). If they are a 30 degree offset bar it would have been nice for the guys at FFI to mention that I would run out of adjustability on my t-bar adjusters, just as a friendly reminder instead of assuming I knew all of the possible issues I might have.

In the grand scheme of things I really don't want the car much lower anyway, so I'm not too worried about it, just curious. I figure I can still take a full turn out of the adjusters without issue, and I suspect I'll still get a little more sag out of the t-bars over the next few months.

[boydsdodge]

I have been reading this great post and thought, could you take the bar out of the control arm, then lift the control arm up to the point that the bar slips in then you can use your adjuster to lift the car again. you usually have to push the control arm as low as possible to get it in but if you lift it ass high as it takes to get it in it might work on your prob.
Just a thought but I am going to try it tomorrow when I put my 1:16 bars in.

[JS27N0B]

I have been reading this great post and thought, could you take the bar out of the control arm, then lift the control arm up to the point that the bar slips in then you can use your adjuster to lift the car again. you usually have to push the control arm as low as possible to get it in but if you lift it ass high as it takes to get it in it might work on your prob.
Just a thought but I am going to try it tomorrow when I put my 1:16 bars in.

I just put the XV level 1 bars in. The problem is the bar does not bend, if you slip it in at normal lower control arm position and then try to jack the lower control arm up into proper position all you do is lift the car as the bar will not turn(bend). I had to install mine so that the adjuster screw just made contact with the lever on the anchor in the LCA. Hope I can get a good ride height out of it.

[72bluNblu]

I actually think he meant to install the t-bar with the LCA not all the way at the bottom of its travel, just raise the LCA until the t-bar cup matched up with the next hex on the bar and slide the torsion bar in at that location. Unfortunately the T-bar cup on the LCA is on a pivot, the LCA just pivots around it. The adjustor is what sets the angle between the pivot (t-bar cup) and the LCA, the only way to re-index the bar is to rotate the t-bar mount in the crossmember...

On another note, I'm surprised XV didn't zero index their bars...

[boydsdodge]

Yes thats what I meant, with the bar out lift the lower control arm up into the wheel well. You will have to sometimes move the adjuster arm with the control arm to get it in position so the torsion bar slips in.
I did it when installing my 1.16 bars and they slipped in and I still had about 1" of screw sticking out below the arm, I didn't leave it that way because I have no drive line in yet. But i wanted to see if it would work. It seems it does, now all I have to do is see if I can get enough travel out of the bolt, the other worry is that the bolt will be holding the adjuster arm at it's full reach and i am not sure if the bolt is strong enough for that. Anyone else want to see if it works or have any ideas?

[boydsdodge]