color of 383/4 in a standard Barracuda or Challenger

[EBodysEast]

You never know when you 'll strike gold, sometimes its once you stop looking. 

Chew on some of this stuff I have here related to the 1970 E Body 383 (2/4/HP) and let me know what you guys agree and disagree on. I have been reading and taking in what the members here have all stated about what the similarities & difference are between the '70 N Code 4bbl's.

Perfect timing.

This is my latest research. All facts relayed or disclosed from here forward are gathered & quoted directly & solely from both the 1970 Plymouth Service Manual and the 1970-71 Chrysler Corp parts catalogs for my only two sources on this topic that as it's stated purpose should only have meaning for '70 E Body 383 engines and is not intended for any comaparisons with '70 B or C body 383 engines, and only then except where specifically noted. This is an awesome E body site so very relevant to stay focused on E Bodys first, then the B & C Bodys. Let's see what you know.

1970 E Bodys ordered with E63 383 4bbl engines in both 330hp and 335hp levels share every same internal part (a windage tray is one part that they did not both get) listed
in the factory parts catalogs and would then share very little with the E61 383 2bbl's.
The 383 L code 2bbl must be included in here throughout for comparison to show how different it really was from a 4bbl. For starters, the 4bbl option cost more than twice as much as a 2bbl. Why such a big cost difference? Possibly because the 4bbls had the better parts like higher compression ratio pistons for one.

There are many references throughout the catalog, that distinguish a 383 4bbl individual part from that of any 2bbl item thats different. There are, however, no precise remarks at all in there to aid one in separating a high performance 4bbl item from the standard 4bbl. The complete opposite is true of the B/E/C body 440 in '70. There are plenty of references when distinguishing internal parts for the 350hp and HP 375hp versions. A good clue IMO that the 383 4bbl's shared ALL internal parts (again, only a windage tray then would separate them.)

Consider that when ordering a 1970 383 short engine or short block, be it a 'warranty' or 'over the counter' and/or 'call it what you will' block, the 2bbl versions had two part numbers to distinguish a cast (3577617) vs forged (3462613) crank versions - while BOTH levels of 383 4bbl replacement short engines shared a single part number with one another, 3462621. These short replacement engines intended for 4bbl 383's lacked a few essential internal parts like cam bearings, cam, lifters, pushrods, oil pump, windage tray - no mention at all there of them being included. Would obviously exclude every external part as well like intake, carb,etc. These short blocks may have also lacked an HP stamp on the engine number pad at the distributor.

All of Chrysler's 383 & 440 engines all shared the single 906 bare casting head & bare replacement head part number 2843904 in 1970. Two different intake & two different exhaust valves were installed into the legendary 906 heads that year. More specifically, the overall stem diameter size was the deciding factor here. 383 2bbl and 440/350 B body engine intake valves p/n 3418469 are greater in stem size than 4bbl valves p/n 3512090 by as much as .005" - thereby restricting the stem to valve guide clearance in the 906 head by the same .005." The absolute same is true of exhaust valves; 2bbl p/n 2899036 / 4bbl p/n 3512095. No BS guys...check it out in the service manual.

The 2bbl/440/350hp valves with their unique part numbers are quite obviously different pieces than the valves that an E63 4bbl was outfitted with. The 2bbl valves were actually also the same valves alotted to 440/350hp B bodys. These valves p/n 2658471 were attached to std duty valve springs that lack an added surge damper coil. The 330/335 engines shared valves & HP springs, in fact, shared the 440/375hp units p/n 2658204. My 1970 330hp 383 was found to have come through with the 440 HP springs - to offer any evidence to this being of truth. All one has to do is quickly check a '70 service manual & 70-71 parts catalog for this info above & then examine other original 330hp engines to verify. Only takes a minute to pop a valve cover off and take a pic. 

'70 E body E63 4bbl engines shared spark plugs, ignition timing, idle speeds, transmissions (10" t/c with 4bbl & automatic,) 666 intake manifold, HP exhaust manifolds as well as the option of dual exhaust. They shared distributors and also shared those uniquely designed '70 vacuum advance units. With all of the above being the case, then wouldn't the 330hp motors then be pre-set up to run the same cam/lifters as the 335 hp motors, yes, and there are two cams listed in the parts catalog that apply to E body. All 383 4bbl engines shared one cam, p/n 2843564, sharing same specs with 440HP - consider first there is only one valve, cam, spring, retainer listed specified for a 4bbl in the '70 service manual. This cam lifts the intake valve to .450 (268') & exhaust to .458 (284'.) Have yet to see the cam specs that Supercuda posted earlier for '70 383 E63. I still want to hear anything he can add to help us learn more. 

Known is that the 2bbl engines along with the 440/350hp engines for B body got the other smaller cam .425/.435 (256'/260') p/n 2532190.

Of note here is when ordering the correct cam in the parts catalog for E body for a 383 or a 440 - is the 'strange' reference to a .05 raised ring cam vs non-raised ring cam. 383 2bbl and 440/350 B Body engines use the .05 raised ring cam. The 440HP 2843564 cam is what was installed into all E body E63/4bbl engines is what it ALL boils down to. A factory 1970 E Body optional 383 engines ad would be nice to see to help compare.

Externally is where the two 383 4bbl's differ. Things like carbs, carb manufacturers, factory windage tray, and possibly even air cleaners. Was there a dual snorkel (330hp) v unsilenced (335hp) air cleaner difference in '70 for E Bodys? Or, did flat hood vs rallye hood make a difference in air cleaners assigned and what air cleaner did ordering a/c determine? My 330hp engine came through with a flat hood, dual snorkel air cleaner & a/c.

The 5 hp difference between the 383's in 1970 was only coming from the windage trays and/or the Holley 4bbl's plus unsilenced air cleaner alone then.

[moparnut]

Yes. AKA Broad Cast Sheet

Moparnut, There were quite a few differences in the 330 and 335 motor. The main differences were to make the 335 more heavy duty not more powerful. I have a list for 1971. I'll try to get it posted over the Holiday.

I would like to see that, the pistons, rods, bearings, ect are all the same, not much left to make them "heavier duty"
I could be wrong....

[Supercuda]

As far as camshaft specs are concerned, I can only offer what I discovered upon teardown of my factory-stock, 1970 383-4 engine, which I know was originally installed in a Superbee. The measured duration and lift were the numbers listed for the HP engine in some 1970 literature, and not the "generic" cam specs so often attributed to the HP engines of 1970. I am in the middle of a move, and cannot access the specific information, so I will just have to let it ride for now. My engine had the surge dampers in the springs, and the windage tray. The measured compression ratio of the factory cast pistons was 9.5:1, as stated in all literature concerning the 1970 383HP engine. Another oddity of this engine was the oil pan, which had a 6-quart capacity and both forward and aft surge baffles above the sump. My car had no skid plate. It was originally Street Hemi orange, and wore a Holley carburetor. Also of note was the factory installation of a 1969 intake manifold (per the cast-in numbers and the carb mounting features, i.e. the 4 holes for the venturii of the carb), and I believe that this is due to its early production date. Even the exhaust manifolds carried the earlier casting numbers. An interesting note here, is the removal of the mounting ears for the heat stove on the left manifold (mine was a fresh-air car), and the apparent factory installation of chrome valve covers on my engine. It also wore a chrome air cleaner lid, and chrome valve cover breather. As far as I was able to determine, this was all part of the "engine dress-up" package, and factory part numbers were stamped into both valve covers, although there was no sign of a part number on the air cleaner lid. The Challenger that had the blue engine with blue intake and Carter 4-V carb, is no longer available to me for inspection. That was in 1980-82, and the car and man are both gone, now. I wish every day that I had kept the factory camshaft with the more radical timing than the "standard" HP cam, as there would then be proof positive of its existence. Perhaps there will be some new information dug up in the future, which will settle this once, and for all.

[EBodysEast]

I wish every day that I had kept the factory camshaft with the more radical timing than the "standard" HP cam, as there would then be proof positive of its existence. Perhaps there will be some new information dug up in the future, which will settle this once, and for all.

Hey guys, anybody have any clue or can back up what he's stating here. There was only one cam for the 383 4bbl in '70, not two. It's the single cam listed in the '70 Dodge & Plymouth factory service manuals for both a 383 4bbl standard and 383 4bbl HP. Supercuda, the cam you say you 'checked' for lift & duration 'back in the day' was not factory and was simply an aftermarket cam. How can you argue otherwise? Were you the original owner in 1970. No. So you don't have any way to verify it wasn't aftermarket. What info ('70 literature) do you think is out there to help to prove you're right? One person's unfounded claims without any real proof are just one more myth for the masses. Not buying into this false claim one bit. Has Mopar re-issued this 'unique' & 'one year only' '70 383 4bbl cam with the rest of their factory line-up of repro cams? No. Why not? After 39 years we need the facts and not more myths, there are enough still around to last another 39 years.

Edit:
Supercuda, maybe you have been around and seen alot of Mopars so no disrespect at all. cool brother. A '70 Superbee engine for comparison when discussing '70 E Body engines can be helpful up to a point. The B body and C body were different car lines and in most assembly matrix instances the engines would have been identical. Consider for instance, that certain '70 C bodys had standard blue 383 4 bbl's that used the 2bbl cam/springs...unlike '70 E Body. Would need to hear from original E body owners that have had their 383 cam measured for it's lift, duration, etc or to be presented some conflicting data to prove that the '70-1 parts catalogs/service manuals are correct or not.

[Supercuda]

As I said before, it is tragic that I did not keep that camshaft. It was stamped with a factory part number, and spec'd out at the figures listed in the manual I used (an old NAPA machine shop manual), and also corresponded to the stock cam for the 1970 383-4V HP engine. I checked and double-checked the figures, the part number, and the book, to be sure. Before that day, I had thought that there was only one camshaft for the HP engines, and that it was the one traditionally listed. The camshaft specs I found in one place for the 383 HP, were the 276/292 numbers I have previously quoted. I figured it for a typo, but was surprised to see the same numbers in the manual I used for checking the camshaft against. I should have kept it, as it was an interesting piece. It was only a used, factory-issue cam when I pulled it, and I had no idea it was a piece of history until years after I chucked it.

[70 R/T]

i have a numbers matching 383 R/T challenger,335 Hp block,orange block  intake and rocker covers,and has the holley list 4218 carb,original manifold ,everything correct as the day it was built,only 25k miles,this has HP cam in it and also stonger springs  and everything else supercuda was saying,i believe he is right,the engine he was talking about was a 335 hp engine and i also know these engines were stronger than the 330-383 engines that were painted blue,i also believe they had the bigger cam as supercuda has said,am sure there was 2 different cams for the 383 -4 barrel engines, also shows this on nhra site that itsfred mentions,shows this cam to be the same as 440 cam in its specs and clearly shows the 2 different cams for the 383 -4 engines also shows the whole line up of engines,some were for chrysler,dodge and plymouth,and some like the 383Hp engine were for dodge and plymouth only

[EBodysEast]

70 R/T - thanks for coming in on this. So you disagree with the '70 service manual and 70-71 parts catalog that states only one cam for both 383-4bbls, correct? What cam part number would you give a Mopar dealer to get you this other 'second' 'bigger' cam with only the one given to choose from?

Did you tear down your original engine with 25K? There aren't any part numbers stamped into the factory cams so how can you be sure of what it is you have if you did? Did you have the cam measured for the true lift and duration, is that how you know it has bigger than advertised 450/458 specs? I agree that a 383HP has the 440 cam & HP springs so do keep that in mind. Has anyone here had their E body's original 383 4bbl cam correctly measured for actual lift/duration.

Maybe re-consider or re-read above that E Body blue 383's had everything an HP motor had minus a windage tray, sharing a cam when EVERYTHING else was set up and in place for it only makes sense. The bigger Holley carb and windage tray gave the extra 5hp in '70. I owned a '70 440/350 station wagon motor that has 383 2bbl valve springs. It must have had a 383 2bbl cam and 2bbl valves just as the parts catalog suggests. My '70 blue 383 4bbl has the HP valve springs, so I believe it has the HP cam too, just as the factory literature quoted throughout this thread states.

1968 & 1969 B body 383's and their parts, cams, etc. are a different story & are for a different discussion than this one. By 1970 the 383 4bbls all shared the same cam. All 383's that is except all those found in '70 Fury's and the Suburbans, according to the Plymouth service manual. By '71 the 383 4bbl as part of its swan song had all the 440 parts it could handle and thus all '71 383 4bbl's were considered HP. Some hard evidence may surface out of all of this so keep it comin' everybody. Nick

Edit: the NHRA cam specs of 455/470 differ from the '70 service manual specs of 450/458, no doubt, so do the 2bbl specs. 

If you look closely for clues just above the cam specs, you see that NHRA factored one Cuda 330hp 383 the exact same as a 335hp and it factors ALL 383 4bbls at 300hp.  And how about the NHRA '71 383/440 cam specs at 467/483...now there's a hot cam! I might want one, where can I buy it new, its close to the 484 street hemi grind from Mopar?! Does Mopar make/sell either cam listed in NHRA's engine blueprint rule guide.

[70 R/T]

Thanks EbodysEast,just giving my view as you asked others to join in on the debate,havent torn down my engine but have measured lift with Dial Indicator ,i got around .450 intake and .470 exhaust,naturally thought that was the .455/470 cam as mentioned on NHRA site,may not be as you have said,i may have different cam and wouldnt know unless i remove to see,believed it to be correct from previous owner who said he freshened engine as car had sat for many years and only used factory mopar parts,was researching my carb list no a while back and came across the NHRA specs then,why would they quote this cam if not so ,and also being the same specs as 440-375 hp engine that is also listed there,why would they also have cam specs for 383-290 at 441/443,383-330 at 441/443 and 383 -335hp at 455/470 ,are  they  wrong as clearly states these figures,also states this cam as used in 440-390 engine as 455/470 ,alot of  information,but makes for a good debate. would be good to find out why the difference on specs from NHRA and 70 service manual 

[EBodysEast]

Good points to raise as far as the NHRA specs.

The only factory re-issue cam for the big blocks from Mopar has always been the 450/458...AFAIK.

I was on BW's Hamtramk site and found the factory ad for '70 Challenger 383's that I mentioned may have been created. They were. Could not find one for Cuda but may be posted there soon I hear? Again, it is just a small piece of the puzzle - created very early in the model year and may contain factual errors. Check it out none the less. It also describes the un-silenced air cleaner installed on 383 R/T and the dual snorkel on 383 Challenger difference I was also trying to shed any light on. 

And when comparing the two Cuda build sheets above - I think the 'Cuda that got the 330hp 383 did not get a rallye hood & hood pins? Can somebody double check that?  Nick

 

[70 383 SE]

My car is an N-code, E63,it is orange, Dual snorkel,flat hood, with A/C (not on it now) California emissions car for 1970. If you go on my thread in EBODY PICS there are some pics, if it helps for the color... or it may just add more fuel to the fire.      KEN    northern 

[70 383 SE]

OH...mine is an SE though not a standard model, if that would make a difference I don`t know!

[EBodysEast]

Do you have a build sheet for your car Ken? 

[70 383 SE]

NO sorry I don`t.

[70 383 SE]

Iam just going by the fender tag codes.

[EBodysEast]

The assemly line engine code and carb code is only recorded on the BCS.