Author Topic: Could Cerberus Just Hand Chrysler's Keys To The UAW? (Read 4993 times)

priderocks · « **Reply #45 on:** December 25, 2008 - 12:03:19 PM »

jeryst, I could not agree with you more. Unions are an anachronism.

People need to realize, and I'm sure most do, that we live in a global, highly competitive economic world. What used to work twenty-five years ago often won't work today. If your business produces a product of lower quality or higher price or with less features, your business cannot and should not survive. Consumers are usually the determiners of that, not national interests or national security. That's why the bailout rests on shaky ground. GM won't survive (as is)making Hummers for the military, nor will they survive on the shoulders of the "I only buy American" crowd- they need the consumers to WANT to open their wallets to their products. Which I suspect they will now be even more reluctant to do. Wondering if there is going to be a dealer around to service your new Challenger will not help sales.

It's tough to see an American icon like the Big 3 go down, for sure. But that's the world we live in. America is no longer the "economic island" it once was.

thedodgeboys · « **Reply #46 on:** December 25, 2008 - 01:19:23 PM »

Quote from: Rare_T_A on December 25, 2008 - 10:34:07 AM

WOW I just think I'll set back a read this one. Will not touch this with a 10ft poll.

Can I interest you in a 20-foot pole it�s made just for things you won�t touch with a 10 footer?

supertuff · « **Reply #47 on:** December 25, 2008 - 02:34:09 PM »

I am a member of the Ibopm Local 413.
That is the International Brotherhood of Pole Manufacturers and i for one am offended. if you wont touch this with a pole then what do you suggest ? You have to use a pole - Its in our contract !!!

Jacksboys · « **Reply #48 on:** December 25, 2008 - 02:47:48 PM »

Quote from: Chryco Psycho on December 24, 2008 - 02:53:47 PM

Maybe CC.Com should take over Chrysler

If you think about it, we have a huge variety of professions here. If there was a way for us to pool our money together and purchase the company, I do not see any problems with us running the company. I mean we all have a love for everything Mopar, so we would work hard to make sure it succeeds.

I doubt it would ever happen, but I love to dream big.

NoMope Greg · « **Reply #49 on:** December 25, 2008 - 04:27:11 PM »

Unions have their good points and bad points. Anyone who thinks that most modern business owners or managers will give workers a fair shake out of the goodness of their hearts is living in a fantasy world. Most will pay as little as possible in order to keep costs low and make themselves more competitive. This often forces the competition run by good-hearted people to follow suit just to stay in business.

I know about this from my own experience; none of the local charter bus companies here in San Diego are union shops, nor are they likely to become union. Most companies pay just enough to attract employees in the door, then spend more on new equipment that they don't take care of and charge customers as little as possible to try to make it up in volume. They suffer from high employee turnover, frequent service lapses and low morale.

My own bosses take the opposite route - older equipment that is well-cared for coupled with a decent wage and benefit package for their employees. They often bemoan that they can't pay more, when they're already paying better than the competition. (I'm sure some of that is crocodile tears, but for the most part I think they're sincere.) And we charge the highest prices in town. How do we stay in business? Exceptional service - very low turnover leads to people knowing what they're getting - professional communication and fullfillment of their needs, a clean well-maintained coach, and a professional polite well-trained driver. But when times get tough, like they are right now, and people are making purchasing decisions based more on price than anything else, it makes our business model difficult to sustain. But nobody in San Diego drives a charter bus to get rich; you can make more driving a concrete mixer. Which is a union job.

That said, as I've posted before, I see the dark side of unions as well. My wife works for a school district with a strong public employees union, CSEA, that is famous for meddling in the district's decision-making process, protecting lazy, incompetent and cheating employees and making a general nuisance of themselves.

I think unions serve a legitimate purpose, but only up to point - the point at which they the individual becomes more important than the group. But don't think that because there are regulations in place to protect the worker that unions are now unneeded. Most of those regulations were the result of the efforts of our ancestors in the labor movement and were fiercely fought against by the business leaders of the time. Take away the efforts of labor and the old days of the sweatshops will return.

Here's a link to an interesting column about the UAW and the bailout. The author is well-known as a pretty liberal writer, but it's still provides some interesting history about the UAW, the domestic auto industry and the current state of affairs vis-a-vis the bailout.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/16/AR2008121602482.html

jeryst · « **Reply #50 on:** December 25, 2008 - 07:00:46 PM »

I dont totally agree that unions are needed in order to get fair wages and good benefits. Foreign auto makers with plants in the US pay their people competitive wages and good benefits. Any company with competant management knows that in order to attract and retain good people, you need to pay them well. If they dont, the result is high turnover, which results in higher costs, lower productivity, stifling of creativity, and loss of institutional knowledge. Its when a company cant get rid of, or has no control over the dead wood, like in most union shops, that the trouble occurs, and the result is higher costs, lower productivity, and shoddy quality. Many union workers feel they have a right to their jobs, and that leads to complacency, apathy, and general lack of productivity and quality. Non-union workers, on the other hand, know that their job is a privilege, and theirs to lose if they screw around.

73Chally · « **Reply #51 on:** December 25, 2008 - 07:07:13 PM »

What is there to motivate someone to do good work when they know how difficult it would be for them lose their job? My wife's uncle works at a MOPAR depot in Detroit, and is a liaison with the UAW workers and management, and has never seen a larger bunch of lazy SOBs in his life. He was one of those seemingly few union guys that would work his butt off no matter what. Management liked his work ethic so much they transferred him to salaried management to try and bring the others up to snuff. Some of the stories he has had to tell are unbelievable. A lot of the folks would quit working early because they "filled their quota" for the day, and would have no initiative or desire to actually go help others.

cudagirl4406pk · « **Reply #52 on:** December 26, 2008 - 07:37:03 AM »

Well i am not saying the unions dont have their problems and also some of the toyota cars are built by UAW so you know.But without the unions alot of companies would not give you half of what you have alot of companies are afraid of people unionizing and give the workers good stuff to keep the unions out.So having them out there really does help.My husband works his ass off also and gets upset that there is dead wood around here that should of been fired years ago.But you take the good with the bad.But it is unfair to bash the UAW or other unions just because they got stuff better for their workers then other companies that you might work for.People show unity to get the stuff they have today from strikes and stuff in the past.I am not in a union only my husband is and he has come from a long line of union members and he see the good with the bad but in the long run it is good becuase of the union my husband dont have to pay one dime for health care,401k match,has a pension,gets 5 weeks vacation a year,can take time for sickness without loss of pay.None of this would be possible ifnot for the unions over the years.

michele

nivvy · « **Reply #53 on:** December 26, 2008 - 09:46:55 AM »

$28hr for a labororer ''''''''''' oookkkkkkkaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy.......

jeryst · « **Reply #54 on:** December 26, 2008 - 11:44:26 AM »

Quote from: cudagirl4406pk on December 26, 2008 - 07:37:03 AM

it is good becuase of the union my husband dont have to pay one dime for health care,401k match,has a pension,gets 5 weeks vacation a year,can take time for sickness without loss of pay.None of this would be possible ifnot for the unions over the years.

michele

Thats exactly what I am talking about. It's okay if you get it, and its okay if the company can afford it, but that is way more than what most people get, so in most peoples opinion, it is excessive. I have been on both sides, myself, because I was in a union for several years after high school, and I also come from a family of union members. I'm not saying anything bad about your husband, or any other union member. I'm just saying, that I have been exposed to, and affected by union policies all of my life, and althought they do good things for their members, it is at the expense of other things. And although your husband appears to be conscientious and hard working, the union environment tends to make many of their members forget those traits because there is very little chance of reprisal, so they take advantage of situations, way too often, to the extremes. You say that your husband is upset about the deadwood, yet he cannot or will not do anything about it. Why? Because as a union member, he cant. He has to stand around and watch others get paid for loafing while he works. So the conscientious, hardworking members like your husband, carry the load for the loafers and deadbeats that could care less about him. Imagine how much better off the company would be if everyone were like your husband. It used to be that unions paid for many of the benefits that their workers now get. My dad was a coal miner, and was a member of their union for many years. But the union stepped up when he needed medical attention, pension, etc. Over time, they have negotiated those costs onto the businesses, and use the extra money to support politicians, and many other things that they have no business meddling in, not to mention how much of it goes to illegitimate causes or just plain outright corruption.

matt63 · « **Reply #55 on:** December 26, 2008 - 12:22:35 PM »

Quote from: StRoKer on December 26, 2008 - 09:46:55 AM

$28hr for a labororer ''''''''''' oookkkkkkkaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy.......

There's one of the big problems. We have one huge workforce comprising highly paid laborers. While I wouldn't want to deny anybody a good living that you could raise a family on, $28-$35 labor jobs can't even be had in boom times around here. If one of the big 3 were to fail, what the heck would these people do? What happened to having to get a trade, some kind of education or have success in entrepreneurship to make good money? Isn't this what opportunity and capitalism are all about in the Western world? Something is out of whack. I hope it doesn't take a total collapse to fix.

jeryst · « **Reply #56 on:** December 26, 2008 - 02:48:08 PM »

Quote from: matt63 on December 26, 2008 - 12:22:35 PM

There's one of the big problems. We have one huge workforce comprising highly paid laborers. While I wouldn't want to deny anybody a good living that you could raise a family on, $28-$35 labor jobs can't even be had in boom times around here. If one of the big 3 were to fail, what the heck would these people do? What happened to having to get a trade, some kind of education or have success in entrepreneurship to make good money? Isn't this what opportunity and capitalism are all about in the Western world? Something is out of whack. I hope it doesn't take a total collapse to fix.

I know I've mentioned it before, but the union in our plant was asked to take a $5/hr cut, from $35/hr to $30/hr. They said they'd rather work at Wal-Mart. Great reasoning: rather make $7/hr than $30/hr. So the company went belly up, and now they got their wish. Union mentality at its finest. No logic, no compromise. Just belligerance and misplaced pride. Go figure.

cudagirl4406pk · « **Reply #57 on:** December 26, 2008 - 05:01:32 PM »

Quote from: jeryst on December 26, 2008 - 11:44:26 AM

Thats exactly what I am talking about. It's okay if you get it, and its okay if the company can afford it, but that is way more than what most people get, so in most peoples opinion, it is excessive. I have been on both sides, myself, because I was in a union for several years after high school, and I also come from a family of union members. I'm not saying anything bad about your husband, or any other union member. I'm just saying, that I have been exposed to, and affected by union policies all of my life, and althought they do good things for their members, it is at the expense of other things. And although your husband appears to be conscientious and hard working, the union environment tends to make many of their members forget those traits because there is very little chance of reprisal, so they take advantage of situations, way too often, to the extremes. You say that your husband is upset about the deadwood, yet he cannot or will not do anything about it. Why? Because as a union member, he cant. He has to stand around and watch others get paid for loafing while he works. So the conscientious, hardworking members like your husband, carry the load for the loafers and deadbeats that could care less about him. Imagine how much better off the company would be if everyone were like your husband. It used to be that unions paid for many of the benefits that their workers now get. My dad was a coal miner, and was a member of their union for many years. But the union stepped up when he needed medical attention, pension, etc. Over time, they have negotiated those costs onto the businesses, and use the extra money to support politicians, and many other things that they have no business meddling in, not to mention how much of it goes to illegitimate causes or just plain outright corruption.

Thanks and i understand your view and yes it makes him mad that he cant do anything about the loafers he complains about it all the time but take the good with the bad i guess.Sorry about what happened to you with your union experience i hate to see any hard worker get screwed.

michele

Author Topic: Could Cerberus Just Hand Chrysler's Keys To The UAW? (Read 4993 times)

priderocks

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thedodgeboys

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supertuff

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Jacksboys

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NoMope Greg

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jeryst

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73Chally

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cudagirl4406pk

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nivvy

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jeryst

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matt63

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jeryst

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cudagirl4406pk

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