T/A Head Rebuild

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    Author Topic: T/A Head Rebuild  (Read 1388 times)

    Offline cwestra

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    T/A Head Rebuild
    « on: January 03, 2009 - 11:03:43 AM »
    Any estimates on what cost is involved in rebuilding the heads on my AAR?  I have not taken them off yet but I assume they have not been touched since installed at the factory.  Just looking for a ballpark estimate for funding purposes?  Also, how particular should I be about who works on these heads?  Should any good machine shop be able to do the job, or should I be looking for a Mopar specific guy or someone who is knowledgable about these heads?
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    Corey - in Northern Indiana


    Offline 71chally416

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    Re: T/A Head Rebuild
    « Reply #1 on: January 03, 2009 - 11:09:40 AM »
    I wouldn't trust just anybody if you don't want the valves sunk. 
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    Offline Chryco Psycho

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    Re: T/A Head Rebuild
    « Reply #2 on: January 03, 2009 - 01:18:16 PM »
    I would expect $500-800
    depending on what is needed , I would install hard seats on the exhaust side , you may need new valves , new springs are a must to match the cam & 10* retainers & locks are a good idea as well
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    Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

    Offline Aussie Challenger

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    Re: T/A Head Rebuild
    « Reply #3 on: January 04, 2009 - 05:34:22 AM »
      If they are the originals I would seek out a MOPAR specialist machine shop, if you let somebody know what area you are in somebody will let you know who to use.   :cheers:
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    Dave

    Offline cwestra

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    Re: T/A Head Rebuild
    « Reply #4 on: January 04, 2009 - 08:27:20 AM »
    Thanks, I live in Northern Indiana (South Bend).
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    Corey - in Northern Indiana

    Offline 440mike

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    Re: T/A Head Rebuild
    « Reply #5 on: January 04, 2009 - 11:19:33 AM »
    im doing a set of those at work now with the offset rockers, pretty much same same as other stuff, clean and mag, honed bronze guides, exh seats, surface the decks and intake faces, machine for pos seals, etc. i do it on the shops sunnen vgs20 machine.
    only thing is the boss gets tuliped type stainless valves custom built(very special) and keeps them in stock for the small dodges because he says they are better in the mopars
    i have to regrind the rocker tips to as they are very worn and waiting for special bushings to hone out and put in the rocker arms to fix them on the rocker shafts as they were all ground out.
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    Offline moper

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    Re: T/A Head Rebuild
    « Reply #6 on: January 04, 2009 - 11:31:11 AM »
    I'd say if it's a modern shop, and uses good parts, you'll need to budget at least $1000 for them. Unless your car is very low miles. With the build you've hinted at in other threads, they'll need more than that $1000.
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    Offline 71chally416

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    Re: T/A Head Rebuild
    « Reply #7 on: January 04, 2009 - 12:04:08 PM »
    Quote from: 440mike on January 04, 2009 - 11:19:33 AM
    only thing is the boss gets tuliped type stainless valves custom built(very special) and keeps them in stock for the small dodges because he says they are better in the mopars

    He must have flow bench information that completely contradicts what Bob Mullen (who designed the W-2 heads) and what I and many others have seen on our flow benchs. Nail head valves flow much better than the stock type Tulip valves in SB heads. Ask Ryan at Shady Dell. 
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    Offline 440mike

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    Re: T/A Head Rebuild
    « Reply #8 on: January 04, 2009 - 09:52:44 PM »
    Quote from: 71chally416 on January 04, 2009 - 12:04:08 PM
    He must have flow bench information that completely contradicts what Bob Mullen (who designed the W-2 heads) and what I and many others have seen on our flow benchs. Nail head valves flow much better than the stock type Tulip valves in SB heads. Ask Ryan at Shady Dell. 

    its done on multi angle cutter in the vgs with 51 degree seats and big throat, he says better from 250 to 500 lift.
    i think it seems to work because the last 340 with 030 over with X heads(same way) but no ported, and hydraulic cam on esso gas made 415 hp at 6100 rpm.
     :o
    « Last Edit: January 04, 2009 - 09:58:35 PM by 440mike »
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    Offline 71chally416

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    Re: T/A Head Rebuild
    « Reply #9 on: January 05, 2009 - 01:30:32 AM »
    I've seen 30 degree seats used to get more low lift flow with small cams, but never steeper 51 degree seats. :clueless: That would actually be detrimental to low lift flow. Flatter 30 degree seats expose more port as they are lifted off the seats, like up to .450" lift, but hurt the higher lifts. And you obviously can't use a 30* seat in a head that has 45* seats without using larger valves unless you sink the valves to do it which would negate any flow increase.

    David Vizard is a big proponent of 30* seats and has write ups and pictures in his engine books explaining what they do. If you ever plan on using a cam with over .450" lift, forget it.         

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    Once we had Ronald Reagan, Bob Hope & Johnny Cash. Now we have Obama, No Hope and No Cash!

    Offline Aussie Challenger

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    Re: T/A Head Rebuild
    « Reply #10 on: January 05, 2009 - 03:13:39 AM »
       :22yikes:  51* seats will put a bit of strain on the valve gear as the valve will be wedging itself into the seat in the head.
      30* always gives you a slightly better flow earlier in the opening but the valve & head need to be blended right.
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    Dave

    Offline moper

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    Re: T/A Head Rebuild
    « Reply #11 on: January 05, 2009 - 06:13:36 PM »
    I have a hard time thinking it's really a 51° seat cut. Possibly one of the angles is 51.. maybe a very small angle above the seat.. but not the seat itself.
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    Offline 440mike

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    Re: T/A Head Rebuild
    « Reply #12 on: January 06, 2009 - 07:03:47 PM »
    i'll have to go ask him for sure but all i know is he calls it the 51 seat cutter but i can not even see any angles with my eyes when done, it all looks kind of rounded and blended, all i know is that when i do the final lap stuff it is just a tiny very thin grey line all the way round at the edge of the valve and the seat on the head.
    he does the setup and i do the work.
    he gets that cutter and others custom built at sunnen, i saw the sheets, and has different ones for different engines heads using different cams hydraulic or roller etc.

    stay tuned i'll ask and get the info.
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    Offline 71chally416

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    Re: T/A Head Rebuild
    « Reply #13 on: January 06, 2009 - 09:41:17 PM »
    The important thing with a valve job is that it hasn't sunk the valves into the chamber, the seats don't have run-out and that the valves seal. All the trick stuff like real narrow seats and 5 angles are not worth much compared to other things realatively speaking, like porting the bowls and the runners. If someone spends $400 for a super duper VJ on heads that already seal good for a 5% flow increase they'll probably be disappointed in the HP per $$$ they get. A stock type VJ done right and $500 worth of good porting for a 30% increase in flow is a much better bargain.  :2cents:

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    Once we had Ronald Reagan, Bob Hope & Johnny Cash. Now we have Obama, No Hope and No Cash!

    Offline moper

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    Re: T/A Head Rebuild
    « Reply #14 on: January 07, 2009 - 12:15:12 PM »
    The 5 angle usually uses a 70° throat cut (which is a bowl hogging cut and gets results than doing it by hand), a 58° cut (what my guy uses and where that "51°" would I think be..), the 45° seat cut, a 35° cut, and a 15° cut that is an unshrouding cut for the chamber. The two additional cuts are the same basic operations that would be done by hand on a set of bowl ported and chambers equalized head. As they are part of the valve job, it's a bit cheaper, plus, the cuts are perfectly round and indexed off the centerline of the valve. Stone valve jobs and tapered pilots are 70's technology, 3 angle valve jobs are '80s. Modern shops use a seat cutter with a floating head and straight pilots to maintain tolerances a stone age guy wouldn't even measure.
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