Author Topic: Truly out of the box? Edelbrock heads question? (Read 19212 times)

Ck[FIN] · « **Reply #15 on:** March 01, 2009 - 03:02:17 PM »

I Bought new edel 340 heads, everything else was ok but 1 oil hole that lubricates the rocker shafts/arms wasnt drilled through. I had to drill it about 0.04" and then it was through. Without that, the shafts would have been dry.
Remember to check them carefully, dont just bolt on.

73EStroker · « **Reply #16 on:** March 01, 2009 - 03:27:30 PM »

My Indy EZs were bolt on out of the box and the engine runs perfectly. Only worry I have is the rocker shaft holddown studs that came from Hughes. They seem to be too short and won't bottom properly in the threads so had to use Loctite and take the small washers off.
Indy make a nice set of 360-?? heads for small blocks and they make excellent power but I do not know if you need a special manifold. Might be too much flow for what you are after. Bolting on Eddies is like a guy putting mag wheels on his car looking for more cornering performance.

72bluNblu · « **Reply #17 on:** March 01, 2009 - 05:12:11 PM »

Quote from: 71chally416 on March 01, 2009 - 12:24:56 PM

The Aeoheads are $499 a PAIR. And I believe you can ask for different springs when you buy them.

Ok, I goofed on that one. But I doubt the spring upgrade is free. And the 915/587 heads (larger port volume) are $599 a pair. Per the Shady Dell website, J head (915's) flows out of the box and with a stage 3 port ($750!, plus a $150 valve job)

LIFT------ASCAST---------PORTED (S3)
.100�----62.1/46.6---------62.1/51.8
.200�----112.1/99.4-------135.2/103.5
.300�----156.6/128.3-----198.7/135.2
.400�----193.2/137.3-----239.8/158.7
.450�----200.1/138.3-----253.9/169.7
.500�----200.1/139.7-----258.4/182.9
.550�----200.1/140.8-----264.9/186.3
.600�----200.8/141.5-----254.6/186.3

Same website, same flow bench, Edelbrock heads...

AS CAST OUT OF BOX

LIFT------IN/EX
.100"----67.0/N/A
.200"--128.3/105.2
.300"--184.5/139.0
.400"--224.6/163.8
.450"--239.4/171.8
.500"--249.4/176.6
.550"--259.4/179.4
.600"--264.9/182.8
.650"--267.3/183.2
.700"--267.3/183.8

So, Aeroheads 587/915 $599,+$80 for hardened seats, +$750 S3 port, +150 race valve job = $1,580 (plus whatever the better springs will cost)
Off the aerohead website
eddy 360 performers = $1335

The S3 J heads do outflow the eddy's on the intake side the whole way, especially in the middle. But the Eddy's outflow the J's up to .450" on the exhaust side. Plus with the aluminum heads I can run an extra point of compression and lose 40 lbs off the nose of the car...

Quote from: 73EStroker on March 01, 2009 - 03:27:30 PM

My Indy EZs were bolt on out of the box and the engine runs perfectly. Only worry I have is the rocker shaft holddown studs that came from Hughes. They seem to be too short and won't bottom properly in the threads so had to use Loctite and take the small washers off.
Indy make a nice set of 360-?? heads for small blocks and they make excellent power but I do not know if you need a special manifold. Might be too much flow for what you are after. Bolting on Eddies is like a guy putting mag wheels on his car looking for more cornering performance.

The indy heads are really nice, but they also cost $2,500 a pair, and require indy's intake manifold and offset rockers...

Plus, I'm not just "bolting on eddy's" to an engine built for iron heads, the build took into account the compression bump needed for the aluminum heads and takes advantage of the heads using the cam. This isn't a stock engine with 8:1 compression that I'm slapping aftermarket heads on hoping for a big HP increase. Plus, should I decide in the future to go back and port the eddy's, an S3 port job on them flows like this...

STAGE 3 PORT WORK

LIFT------IN/EX
.100"----77.6/N/A
.200"--144.9/112.2
.300"--204.3/151.8
.400"--255.3/189.8
.450"--276.0/199.1
.500"--286.0/201.9
.550"--292.2/206.3
.600"--297.4/208.4
.650"--297.4/209.8
.700"--297.4/211.1

Where the S3 ported J heads would already be pretty much maxed out for flow...

moper · « **Reply #18 on:** March 01, 2009 - 10:43:03 PM »

You wont find a better bang for the buck than the RPMs. I have not run the Magnum versions, but the figures of 260 are published elsewhere too. They are a very good out of the box PORT design. As far as quality, I have not seen the core shift issues some here have found. Not in the various sets I've used LA or the B/RB versions. The ports as cast are ok. The cnc program that does the basic machining also touches the port entries, and in this area I simply blend them. The seats can be out of round.. typical on mass production assemblies, and Indy is MUCH worse with that one issue. The exh guide spec I think Edelbrock uses is .0005". IMO, that is too tight, and for the most part, they will vary head to head from .0003-.0006. I hone these out to get between .0007 and .001". Also, the springs they give you are rated for a certain lift. They are not that strong a spring when compared to what most modern cams want. So in many cases, you will need to replace the valve springs. Aerohead labor simply sucks. After seeing two sets seperated by years, I would rate them one step above a mass rebuilder job and consider them a roll of the dice. You have a good plan. Have the heads checked and the valve job corrected. And enjoy them. It's fairly easy to get 450-480hp with no porting what so ever with RPMs, although I dont think that level could ever be reached with your cam choice. I think a more realistic figure with Magnum RPMs will be around 430-440hp.

71chally416 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 01, 2009 - 11:26:53 PM »

I found the article about the Aeroheads. It was in CarCraft.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0311_chevy_vs_ford_vs_mopar/index.html

Another>
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=123496717&blogID=207134980

For what it's worth. 418hp for $2500 except carb ignition & headers.

72bluNblu · « **Reply #20 on:** March 02, 2009 - 04:20:17 AM »

Quote from: 71chally416 on March 01, 2009 - 11:26:53 PM

I found the article about the Aeroheads. It was in CarCraft.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0311_chevy_vs_ford_vs_mopar/index.html

Another>
http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=123496717&blogID=207134980

For what it's worth. 418hp for $2500 except carb ignition & headers.

Some good articles there! Well, the second one mostly as the first didn't really explain the build details at all. I'm surprised they were able to make that much with a stock flow head, but looking at that cam I guess I shouldn't be too surprised! Some wicked duration on that thing. Good info for future builds (I've got that Dart with a 318), but I think for this one I'm going to stick with the Edelbrock's.

Moper- Thanks for the info! I think I may get a "prepped" set of Edelbrock's from Hughes. A little more money, but it should take care of any of the production line issues. I looked into the valvesprings too, comparing the springs Lunati recommends to the ones that come with the Eddy's I think you may be right on that one, the seat pressure looks a little lacking. I'll have to look into it a little more...

71chally416 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 02, 2009 - 09:15:29 AM »

It's too bad they (CarCraft) couldn't use the Iron R/T Magnum heads on that cheap build because it would have blew the chevy away. That was 70's smog motor head technology against one of the best, if not the best factory iron heads Chevy sells that you can use on the 1st gen SBC. ("Comparisons of the Vortec heads to the top-10 aftermarket aluminum small-block heads consistently places the Vortec head in the top five category in these mid-lift flow areas.") That would have been a true "Apples to Apples" comparison using parts of the same era. But then they do call it "Chevy Craft" so one would expect them to give the Chevy an unfair advantage.

femtnmax · « **Reply #22 on:** March 02, 2009 - 04:45:38 PM »

The latest April 2009 Hot Rod issue on page 84 has the cylinder head and head gasket combo that will fix your 340's quench problem correctly.
They are using Mopar cylinder heads # P5153849 which is a closed chamber head like the non-340 Edy heads. Both heads have a good flat quench pad.
Then they use Felpro head gasket #8553PT which has a 0.055 thickness. Now to calculate the quench clearance, take the 0.055 gasket thickness minus 0.015 piston above deck equals 0.040 which is a VERY GOOD quench clearance. David Vizard ran quench clearance down to 0.028 on a test motor. 0.032-0.035 is still totally acceptable. I am running 0.032 on my Datsun 1200, and 0.036 on my Ford 390.
So I would say DONT buy a "340" head, buy one with a flat quench pad, and use the correct Felpro gaskets.
Then if you ever change pistons again, go for flat top (no dome), and your combo will still work perfectly with FElpro 0.040 common head gaskets.
With the proper quench clearance, at sea level, you could run 10.0:1 compression with aluminum heads, and be able to use regular grade pump gas.
I live at 4800 feet elevation, my Ford 390 is running 9.6:1 compression, 0.036 quench, with OEM iron heads. and runs with NO detonation using the cheapest pump gas I can buy. So proper quench clearance works.
The article also has a bunch of other 340 specific build info, what intake, cam, headers, etc worked and what the combo produced.

nivvy · « **Reply #23 on:** March 03, 2009 - 05:39:32 AM »

whatever ones you get full port them

sleepy.... dwayne porter is on of the top porters there are.... he had nothing nice to say about the heads..... WAY to many issues..... I have heard of second castings . not sure if true or not....

sleepychallenger · « **Reply #24 on:** March 03, 2009 - 05:48:37 AM »

thanks Jason,

no disrespect intended to mr porter, just dont know his findings if he deletes his posts.

Does anyone know if there are second casting heads now from 440 source?

moper · « **Reply #25 on:** March 03, 2009 - 12:25:22 PM »

Sleepy, he posts on Moparts once in a while in the race section, but it's getting into the racing season up north. The racers all want everything done yesterday. So he may be busy. In terms of factory iron, he is "The Man" hands down. He's also pretty saavy with aftermarket heads and camshaft selection, and his flow numbers are very accurate and repeatable.

sleepychallenger · « **Reply #26 on:** March 03, 2009 - 01:35:20 PM »

Quote from: moper on March 03, 2009 - 12:25:22 PM

Sleepy, he posts on Moparts once in a while in the race section, but it's getting into the racing season up north. The racers all want everything done yesterday. So he may be busy. In terms of factory iron, he is "The Man" hands down. He's also pretty saavy with aftermarket heads and camshaft selection, and his flow numbers are very accurate and repeatable.

right on. i was reading the post that Jason has in his sig block and Mr Porter had deleted all of his posts so i couldnt see what he was refering to as far as what was wrong with the 440 source heads. where is he from?

nivvy · « **Reply #27 on:** March 03, 2009 - 03:04:51 PM »

http://home.planet.nl/~meine119/temp/porterracingheads/pricing.html

72bluNblu · « **Reply #28 on:** March 03, 2009 - 03:28:09 PM »

Quote from: femtnmax on March 02, 2009 - 04:45:38 PM

The latest April 2009 Hot Rod issue on page 84 has the cylinder head and head gasket combo that will fix your 340's quench problem correctly.
They are using Mopar cylinder heads # P5153849 which is a closed chamber head like the non-340 Edy heads. Both heads have a good flat quench pad.
Then they use Felpro head gasket #8553PT which has a 0.055 thickness. Now to calculate the quench clearance, take the 0.055 gasket thickness minus 0.015 piston above deck equals 0.040 which is a VERY GOOD quench clearance. David Vizard ran quench clearance down to 0.028 on a test motor. 0.032-0.035 is still totally acceptable. I am running 0.032 on my Datsun 1200, and 0.036 on my Ford 390.
So I would say DONT buy a "340" head, buy one with a flat quench pad, and use the correct Felpro gaskets.
Then if you ever change pistons again, go for flat top (no dome), and your combo will still work perfectly with FElpro 0.040 common head gaskets.
With the proper quench clearance, at sea level, you could run 10.0:1 compression with aluminum heads, and be able to use regular grade pump gas.
I live at 4800 feet elevation, my Ford 390 is running 9.6:1 compression, 0.036 quench, with OEM iron heads. and runs with NO detonation using the cheapest pump gas I can buy. So proper quench clearance works.
The article also has a bunch of other 340 specific build info, what intake, cam, headers, etc worked and what the combo produced.

Sounds like I need to look at an article! Thanks for the info!

The pistons for the 340 were kind of an issue, there really aren't a lot of options for 340 pistons, especially when you get to .060" over like my engine is. Pretty much the only options were the KB hyper's or Speed Pro forged, both of which are .018 over the deck on a high compression 340. Technically, both the KB 243's and the Speed Pro's are flat top pistons, no domes. Only other options were blower pistons, which were too low on the compression, or custom forged, and I really wasn't looking to spend that much for pistons on this build. Either way if the engine gets rebuilt again it will need sleeves, so I'll have more piston options, but hopefully that won't be for a long time.

I guess I need to figure out if its better to run the open chamber heads with a normal gasket or the closed chamber heads with a thick one. The aluminum heads should support up to 11:1 with pump gas though, and the thick gasket will put me at 10:1. The open chambers would put me around 10.5:1. Although it would be nice to know why the open chamber heads are machined .06", if the closed chamber heads will work with a flat top zero deck and the pistons I have are only .018" over the deck. Maybe I can have the closed chamber heads cut .018" instead? Wish I knew the clearance (or interference) before I had the heads purchased...

femtnmax · « **Reply #29 on:** March 03, 2009 - 08:33:33 PM »

Quote from: 72bluNblu on March 03, 2009 - 03:28:09 PM

I guess I need to figure out if its better to run the open chamber heads with a normal gasket or the closed chamber heads with a thick one. The aluminum heads should support up to 11:1 with pump gas though, and the thick gasket will put me at 10:1. The open chambers would put me around 10.5:1. Although it would be nice to know why the open chamber heads are machined .06", if the closed chamber heads will work with a flat top zero deck and the pistons I have are only .018" over the deck. Maybe I can have the closed chamber heads cut .018" instead? Wish I knew the clearance (or interference) before I had the heads purchased...

Compare your two choices. Assume your piston is 0.018 above deck in both choices.
First is open chamber head. For 0.040 head gasket thickness, then add 0.060 for combustion chamber cut equals 0.100. Now subtract 0.018 for piston above deck, this gives you 0.082 between the top of the piston and the cylinder head combustion chamber. This combo will NOT work at all as a quench pad. You will then need to run medium-premium grade gas.
Look at the second combo, the one written in the Hot Rod article.
Cylinder head comes with flat quench pad as part of the combustion chamber. Use 0.055 head gasket thickness, then subtract 0.018 for piston above deck, this equals 0.037 which is a PERFECT quench distance.

Having this distance correct greatly reduces the engines tendancy to detonate!! This is MORE IMPORTANT than you realize!!!!!! The combo #1 open chamber is a SMOG band-aid from the late 60's. Mopar went to open chambers, Ford went to air pumps. Don't build with 60's technology. The modern Mopar Hemi and hot Chevy's, all use quench pads, like combo #2.

If I followed you correctly, combo #2 gives you 10:1 compression, then combine with the proper quench clearance the engine will run detonation free, quite possibly on regular to at most mid-grade pump gas. The good combustion chamber shape means you won't need as much initial timing advance. I think the article had about 34 degrees total advance.
IMO I would do the HOT ROD second combo. DO NOT cut the head combustion chambers. IF anything, CC the chambers and the piston 0.018 'dome', then use the following KB-silvolite dynamic compression calculator to find your resultant static and dynamic compression.
http://kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp

Here is Hot Rod info on static/dynamic compression ratios:
http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_0706_pitstop_compression/index.html

Use a variable key timing chain set to tweek your intake closing point to tune in the final compression ratio. Static compression for low elevation near sea level keep at about 10.:1 max for pump gas, also you want the dynamic compression at 8:1 or less. Remember, the engines ability to resist detonation will diminish as carbon deposits build over a few thousand miles, so build conservatively.

Author Topic: Truly out of the box? Edelbrock heads question? (Read 19212 times)

Ck[FIN]

Re: Truly out of the box? Edelbrock heads question?

73EStroker

Re: Truly out of the box? Edelbrock heads question?

72bluNblu

Re: Truly out of the box? Edelbrock heads question?

moper

Re: Truly out of the box? Edelbrock heads question?

71chally416

Re: Truly out of the box? Edelbrock heads question?

72bluNblu

Re: Truly out of the box? Edelbrock heads question?

71chally416

Re: Truly out of the box? Edelbrock heads question?

femtnmax

Re: Truly out of the box? Edelbrock heads question?

nivvy

Re: Truly out of the box? Edelbrock heads question?

sleepychallenger

Re: Truly out of the box? Edelbrock heads question?

moper

Re: Truly out of the box? Edelbrock heads question?

sleepychallenger

Re: Truly out of the box? Edelbrock heads question?

nivvy

Re: Truly out of the box? Edelbrock heads question?

72bluNblu

Re: Truly out of the box? Edelbrock heads question?

femtnmax

Re: Truly out of the box? Edelbrock heads question?