synthetic vs regular oil

Author Topic: synthetic vs regular oil  (Read 4693 times)

Offline matt63

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Re: synthetic vs regular oil
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2009 - 05:35:42 PM »
If you're running a roller cam, like the new engines, the high zinc/phosphorus is not important.  Some guys also report more leaks with the full synthetics anyway.  I don't think it is necessary if you are doing frequent oil changes.  From what I have seen of the vtwin bike oils, they are 20W50 with tons of zinc/phosphorus.  Probably too viscous for a Mopar engine.  Synthetic gear oils can reduce friction which may be bad when used in gearboxes with syncros.
Matt in Edmonton

'68 Valiant
'73 Cuda 340 4 speed (408) SOLD




Offline moparmaniac59

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Re: synthetic vs regular oil
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2009 - 08:09:50 PM »
Here is a very interesting article on the Joe Gibbs racing oil web site. the point I was trying to make was on the usage of standard synthetic oils suitable for passenger cars on high performance engines. I know a lot of folks here have Mopars with engines that are far from stock and as such should consider reading into this and be wise in their selection of engine lubricants. For my engine and engines with high spring pressures and loads, blowers, high rpms ect a suitable racing oil should be considered instead of an off-the-shelf oil that is more suitable for passenger cars!!

Today's Street Oils Are Not the Same as They Used To Be

As Comp Cams recently pointed out in a Tech Bulletin, "Today's engine oil is just not the same as it used to be, thanks to the ever tightening environmental regulations."1 The EPA, car manufacturers, and the American Petroleum Institute (API) have done a great job reducing emissions and extending the life of emissions control equipment. However, the reduction in emissions has coincided with a reduction in traditional, performance proven anti-wear additives (i.e. zinc dithiophosphates). In the years ahead, the levels of formulated anti-wear will be further reduced. While this is great for the environment, it is bad news for your racing engine.

As stated in the book "Lubrication Fundamentals","In heavily loaded applications (i.e. racing engines), flat tappet cam followers operate on partial oil films at least part of the time. Lubricants with anti-wear additives are necessary if rapid wear and surface distress are to be avoided. The oil additive Zinc Dithiophosphate is to provide anti-wear activity for the camshaft and lifters. With the increased use of roller follower cams (in production cars), the requirements for anti-wear have been changed to prolong the life of emission control devices."2 The increased RPM and related increase in valve spring pressure in today's racing engines require higher levels of formulated anti-wear, especially in flat tappet engines. Again, the book "Lubrication Fundamentals" sums this up, "Loading on the rubbing surfaces in the valve train may be high, particularly in high speed engines, where stiff valve springs must be used to ensure that the valves close rapidly and positively. This loading can result in lubrication failure unless special care is taken in the formulation of the lubricant."3

This is where Joe Gibbs Racing found ourselves in the late 1990's. The valve train loads in our flat tappet NASCAR Sprint Cup engines exceed 500 psi in order to turn over 9,000 rpm. The high loads and long duration races (up to 600 miles) required more formulated anti-wear chemistry than even the best API rated synthetic passenger car oils offered. Joe Gibbs Driven Racing Oil was born out of the need for a high quality, synthetic oil that could protect both our flat tappet Sprint Cup and roller follower Nationwide Series engines without giving up horsepower. Over the last seven racing seasons, we've developed a family of lubricants that provide the necessary levels of advanced formulated anti-wear chemistry to protect highly loaded racing engines from break-in to endurance race conditions.

We've also learned a few things about oil that can help you make better educated decisions about which oil to use in a particular engine.

* Additives Make a Difference - As referenced earlier, having the correct additives in the correct amount formulated into the oil separates racing engine oils from passenger car engine oils. You wouldn't use a stock piston in a built race engine, and the same goes for oil.

* Surface Finish Matters - "The minimum safe film thickness is a function of the roughness of the surfaces. Rougher surfaces require thicker films (higher viscosity oil) to prevent contact of surface asperities through the film. On the other hand, the finer the surface finish, the lower minimum safe film thickness (lower viscosity oil) and the less clearance is necessary. Since film thickness decreases with increases in unit loading, if the minimum safe film thickness is lower as a result of finer surface finishes, the allowable unit loading is higher.”4 The improvement of surface finishes through chemical polishing and tape polishing has enabled JGR to lower the viscosity of oil we use without sacrificing wear. Especially at break-in, the better surface finish you begin with, the fewer problems will be encountered during break-in. The polished foot flat-tappet lifters currently available provide superior surface finish compared to non-polished lifters.

* Choose the Correct Operating Viscosity – Viscosity is a measure of an oil’s resistance to flow, and viscosity decreases (flow increases) as temperature increases. With that in mind, the operating temperature of the oil plays a major role in the selection of the proper viscosity oil. Too high a viscosity oil can result in excessive heating and lower mechanical efficiencies. Too low a viscosity oil can lead to excessive metal to metal contact of moving parts. When oil is of the correct viscosity and has adequate anti-wear characteristics, wear due to metal-to-metal contact is kept at a minimum. As previously stated, improved surface finishes allow the safe use of lower viscosity oil for better cooling and improved efficiency (horsepower). In addition to operating temperature, engine speed (RPM) and load also effect the operating viscosity and film thickness of an oil. Higher engine loads (cylinder pressure) decrease film thickness, but higher engine speeds (RPM) increase film thickness. Learn more about choosing the right viscosity and view our recommendation charts >

Racing Oil vs. Street Oil



Why use racing oil instead of street car oil?

Street car oils are designed to protect production engines that run in non-extreme conditions over a long period of time, i.e. - your passenger car over 5,000 miles. Racing engines experience the exact opposite, high temp, high rpm, extreme conditions for 500 miles. To meet these extreme needs, we have been using custom blended oils for six years, but these products have not been available to other racers until now.

What is the purpose of racing oil?

I wouldn't use stock pistons in a racing engine, and the same goes for oil. Racing only oils contain high levels of anti-wear and friction reducing additives that the API won't allow in modern street car oils. That's why many engine builders have seen increased valve-train wear, especially in flat-tappet engines, over the last 6 years.

Aren't all synthetic oils equal?

No, there are many blends of synthetic oil, and most are not specifically designed for racing. Like I mentioned before, true racing oils contain anti-wear and friction reducing additives that don't conform to the American Petroleum Institute's (API) standards. The extra anti-wear additive and the extra friction reducing additives provide superior valve train component protection and a performance increase compared to even the best synthetic API licensed oil. Anti-wear additives like (Zinc) and friction reducers like (Moly) combined with superior synthetic base stocks along with other proprietary additives yield a formula that provides the best protection for our engines without robbing any power. Joe Gibbs Driven Racing Oil handles a flat-tappet, push-rod V8 turning more than 9000 RPM and seeing temperatures above 240 degrees F.

What is API?

API, the American Petroleum Institute develops standards for passenger car oils, and one of the two main considerations for street car oils are emissions regulations and equipment. All current production cars feature catalytic converters for cleaner emissions. Unfortunately, the best anti-wear additive, Zinc, harms catalytic converts. As a result, the API has been reducing the amount of Zinc it allows for the last 10 years.
The other consideration the API looks at is engine set-up. Prior to 1986, almost all small block GM engines featured flat-tappet, push rod style valvetrains. Those engines have been replaced with roller follower or overhead cam engines. As a result, the API standards have changed to keep up with this change in engine configuration. That is good news for your street car, but bad news for your race car, especially if you have a flat-tappet race engine.

What are the results of using racing oil for a Saturday night racer?

Most racers who don't already use a racing oil, tend to use a 15W50 synthetic. These higher viscosity synthetics do a good job of preventing bearing wear, but it comes at a cost. In addition to seeing an increase in power, racers that use our oil see prolonged camshaft life, decreased bore wear, improved valve spring life and reduced operating oil temp.

What is the cost difference vs. performance advantage?

Just like racing pistons cost more than stock pistons because the material is better, racing oils feature materials that perform better in race engines, and the increase in cost is off-set by an increase in performance. Typically you can expect power gains of three or more horsepower, and we've also seen an increase in part life for critical engine parts like rocker arms, lifters, valve springs and camshafts (none of which are cheap!). It all adds up to an inexpensive horsepower gain - under $10 per HP. The bottom line is that racing oils provide affordable power gains and pay for themselves down the road by extending the life of the most expensive valve-train components.

Is there anything I need to be careful of?

Yes, our racing oils are designed for engines with specific tolerances and surface finishes. Be sure to consult our product data sheets to determine which oil is right for your engine, or contact our technical support line for more guidance.



Matt

Offline quagmire

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Re: synthetic vs regular oil
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2009 - 09:05:30 PM »
Synthetics are superior in almost every way except price, hands down.  Many vehicles run it straight from the factory and many require it for warranty purposes.  Engine manufacturing quality has improved to the point where they no longer need the dino oil to help seat rings.  This is standard across the board with OEM's.  Obviously older engines and rebuilds are not up to this standard of cylinder bore finish.  The leak myth is (was) caused by old seals that were on their last legs anyways allowing the syn oil to seep out or dislodge sludge plugging them up, if the gaskets are in decent shape like they should be anyways it is not an issue. 

Offline bb71challenger

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Re: synthetic vs regular oil
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2009 - 10:14:29 PM »
I think most agree synthetics are superior but most still lack the additives that make our engines live longer, namely zinc. Without that single additive the superiority of synthetic oil is void and is actually detrimental to longevity.
1971 Challenger (OO==== ====OO) getting close!
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Offline matt63

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Re: synthetic vs regular oil
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2009 - 10:41:33 PM »
I own an aircooled '95 Porsche Carrera which needs the high zinc/p content too.  There are lots of suitable synthetic oils such as Amsoil and Redline. 
Matt in Edmonton

'68 Valiant
'73 Cuda 340 4 speed (408) SOLD

Offline usraptr

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Re: synthetic vs regular oil
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2009 - 12:34:19 PM »
I emailed comp cams about the warranty issue and got the following response:

Message:
On a classic car forum I belong to, somebody has posted that Comp Cams will
not honor the warranty if you use synthetic oil in their engine.  Is this
true? Thanks, Brad Merritt
 
"I haven't heard of that. We generally don't recommend synthetic oil on flat
tappet cams but it won't void any warranty. "
 
1970 Plymouth 'Cuda.  Matching numbers 440 U Code, 4 speed pistol grip, Rallye dash, AM 8 Track, Shaker hood, 15 inch rallye wheels, Dana 60 4.10, Super Track Pak.  One of 134 - 440 "U" coupes codes built in 1970 and one of 100 - 440 Super Track Paks built in 1970.

Restoration pictures at:  http://spanks4thememory.smugmug.com/Cars/70-Cuda/7240639_M24oi#465274575_2MBqW
(Edited 8-1-17)

"usraptr" = United States raptor - bird of prey = United States Bald Eagle.  FYI, somebody else thought of it first so I had to drop the "O" in raptor.

Offline Ck[FIN]

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Re: synthetic vs regular oil
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2009 - 12:57:34 PM »
On a street engine, use the oil you feel comfortable with. Todays oils are very good compared to 30years old stuff.
On a camshaft break in- use lots of camshaft lube or zinc based oil.
Get real - Get Mopar

Offline farmertan

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Re: synthetic vs regular oil
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2009 - 02:49:01 PM »
I myself like brad penn its a small american company in bradford pennsylvania,buy american, the amount of zinc is a secret but the epa would probably shut them down if known. ;)
73 340 4sp 2nd owner since 85    brett

Offline dodge freak 2

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Re: synthetic vs regular oil
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2009 - 07:49:36 PM »
I ask the guy who made my custom cam (Mike Jones of NC) about using synthetic oil after the cam was broke in in my old Mopar motor, his answer was not to use it, I be asking for many problems using synthetic.

Right now I am using Pennzoil GT racing 25W-50, its a non street legal oil and cost me $53 for 12 quarts right to my door from the oil store dot com.

I use K&N oil filters too.

Offline bb71challenger

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Re: synthetic vs regular oil
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2009 - 09:36:33 PM »
I myself like brad penn its a small american company in bradford pennsylvania,buy american, the amount of zinc is a secret but the epa would probably shut them down if known. ;)

got any contact info on that oil? Wonder how far west they sell it? Sounds like it has zinc levels like the good old days.
1971 Challenger (OO==== ====OO) getting close!
1970 Challenger (OO########OO) long ways off
*Brett*

Offline farmertan

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Re: synthetic vs regular oil
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2009 - 09:43:31 PM »
Just there web site, maybe they could tell you where your local dealer is. We can buy it locally.                        http://www.bradpennracing.com/
73 340 4sp 2nd owner since 85    brett

Offline bb71challenger

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Re: synthetic vs regular oil
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2009 - 09:55:09 PM »
Thanks for the link Brett.
1971 Challenger (OO==== ====OO) getting close!
1970 Challenger (OO########OO) long ways off
*Brett*

Offline farmertan

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Re: synthetic vs regular oil
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2009 - 10:04:38 PM »
I did notice on there site its about 1500ppm zinc,and the testimonials i see a couple guys i new of when i raced,donny morans dads track i raced at once in ohio and scott russell right here in kazoo,thats kind of neat.and most of all its 100% AMERICAN.
73 340 4sp 2nd owner since 85    brett

Offline dodge freak 2

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Re: synthetic vs regular oil
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2009 - 11:24:49 PM »
There is companies that will test the oil for you. Either new or used. Pro racers use them all the time. Believe its about $20 a test.


Offline matt63

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Re: synthetic vs regular oil
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2009 - 01:07:24 PM »
Many of the air cooled Porsche guys use the Brad Penn oil for the wear additives.  I believe it is the 20w50 racing oil that is popular.
Matt in Edmonton

'68 Valiant
'73 Cuda 340 4 speed (408) SOLD