Author Topic: A LITTLE GUN HISTORY  (Read 4806 times)

Offline cudadave72

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Re: A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
« Reply #30 on: April 01, 2009 - 10:25:09 PM »
I have always believed in the saying... If guns are outlawed then only outlaws will have guns. Think about it!!
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Offline OzCuda

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Re: A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2009 - 08:42:37 AM »
Ok, I've had a bit of a think about this today and I concede that in a society that has a crime problem and easy access to weapons, the perpetrator not knowing exactly whether the intended victim will face them with a gun is probably a moderator that improves or protects your individual safety.  Thankfully living in Australia, we haven't got a widespread problem where this would be the solution.  Sure our criminals have guns and so do our police but we are essentially better off with limited access to guns across the board.  The up for us is that if we have a school kid get bullied at school, he can't go home and get dad's gun and kill 20 other kids.  In this regard alone we are much better off with gun control. 

Regards your constitution, well that would take a bit of research on my behalf to discuss with you equally but my earlier point about context is still valid I think - a set of ideas based on independence from British rule (and the right to bear arms against an oppressive government) may no longer be valid 200+ years later when the US is supposed to be the bastion of democracy and government by the people etc etc.  I can't see that it is necessarily still valid to consider rising up against the government selected by the majority of the citizens - that would make the bearers of arms enemies of the state, rebels, whatever?  The guarantees provided by your constitution are admirable but so is legislation drafted subsequently to cater for the greater public good in a completely different time.  Your example of legislating against smoking is a case in point - passive smoking is proved to cause cancer and people have a right to enter premises without being exposed to cancer-causing substances - would you consider it a right to have exposed asbestos in public areas?  In such a case some people lose their percieved rights for the greater good.  Colour of cars - don't know what you are talking about here as I've seen lots of different colour cars in the US? 

I don't doubt the intelligence of the drafters of your constituion either but that doesn't mean that everybody has dumbed-down since - it is still possible that good ideas will meet resistance at first and then be the foundation of a better society in the future.

Why do I care about what happens in the US?  You're right, I probably shouldn't - it's your country but the degree of influence the US has over events outside of your country means that the rest of the world does observe what happens to you.  We are often the recipients of your culture - both good and bad so if things do or don't work in your society then they are of interest to us.  My view on guns is different to yours - you see a gun as the protector of your personal liberty, I look at guns as the tool that will kill you (or used to oppress you in your examples).  Yes I'm a liberal tree-hugger (except for 14 MPG out of the Barracuda) but I've also spent most of my life in our military and I do enjoy a good debate, which is why I try to counter some of the things said that just aren't accurate.  And the US does do some things extremely well - going to the moon, building muscle cars (which is why I'm here) etc etc.  Don't want to cause too much offense so probably best if I leave this alone but I just can't help myself sometimes - cheers.
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Offline farmertan

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Re: A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2009 - 09:02:02 AM »
Oz i respect your opinion even if its different then mine. Even in this country theres a huge diff between city dwellers and country folks,I live on a farm and a gun is just another tool that i need. We have skunks,woodchucks,coons,wild dogs,etc that left on there own would destroy equipment in the field,cement slabs would colapse,kids would smell like skunk,too many pigeons poop on the feed and cause desease,etc. Crime in the country is low because criminals know every farm house has a gun and big dog.your country being isolated is different then ours w/mexican drugs and other things. I still wouldnt want to be in the outback without a gun but if you do thats fine be sure too film the croc that chases you. :naughty:
73 340 4sp 2nd owner since 85    brett

Offline FY1Challenger

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Re: A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2009 - 09:31:17 AM »
Oz - I think some of those WWII "bunker mentality" vets might take exception to your assesment of the good Ole' US of A.  Especially those folks on the West coast of Austrailia who were bailed out by the 1st Marines and assorted American army divisions in 1942. If you study demographics depicting locations of 90% of America's homocides, you'll also see those places have the most restrictive gun laws! Washington, DC, Detriot, Philadelphia, NY City... :dunno:

Offline 340Challman

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Re: A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2009 - 10:47:59 AM »
 :cheers: OZ, as I said I mean no disrespect or offense. I am glad that I didn't rub you the wrong way. I probably didn't say it very well. :thumbsup:

You mention pointing out inaccuracies, may I address some of yours? The Constitution did not form a Democracy in the U.S.. A Democracy is "majority rule". The problem with democracies is that it sucks to be the disliked minority. Our country (and yours) is a perfect example of what happens when you practice democracy such as blacks, indians, women, certain religions, (aboriginal people), basically any minority. The Constitution formed a Republic. A Republic is "rules rule" or laws. These laws are established to protect everyone equally regardless of your majority or minority status. This is why I mentioned "individual" rights and liberties not the majority's. So No, we are not supposed to be "the bastion of democracy" as you put it. And to address this a little further, our elected officials are not acting on behalf of the majority or the good of the country when they allow corporations to buy laws and allowances that permit them to make more money by removing all of the jobs from the U.S. and turning us into parasites unable to support ourselves without the government tit. That is Capitalism which results in Socialism. We already know neither of those forms of government work. Our elected officials are acting on behalf of their pocket books and nothing more. I quote you - "The guarantees provided by your constitution are admirable but so is legislation drafted subsequently to cater for the greater public good". I hope you never find yourself not part of the "greater public good".

I agree with you that a firearm makes it "easier" for mentally ill people to enter an establishment and kill people, but it would not stop them if they were unavailable. They would just find some other method. These people obviously need help and if they are intent on killing they will kill. Firearms are relatively new in the history of mankind and yet we still managed to very effectively kill off each other without them.

"Your example of legislating against smoking is a case in point - passive smoking is proved to cause cancer and people have a right to enter premises without being exposed to cancer-causing substances" Why? is it their premises? People have the right to decide if they want to enter someone else's premises if smoking is occurring inside. Unless you are paying for those premises you have no right to dictate what goes on inside of them. The owner of the premises has the right to decide if he wants to lose non-smoking business because he will allow smoking inside. Do you really want your neighbor telling you what you can and can't do with and in your own home? Again, I hope you never find yourself the disliked minority. By the way, I do not smoke and never have. :grinno:

"In such a case some people lose their percieved rights for the greater good." I don't know what your "perceived" rights are, but I know what ours are because they are spelled out in the Constitution.

Well, now that we have gone a few rounds, what do ya say we go out and pollute the air, waste some fossil fuel, break a few laws and have more fun than should be allowed by law before the greater public decides we can't. :poopoke: :poopoke: :stirpot: :2thumbs: :bigsmile:
Don't look back, I might be gaining on you.
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Offline farmertan

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Re: A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2009 - 11:27:01 AM »
Hey oz i just remembered when some fool introduced rabbits to your country and theres no animals there that eat them and they went nuts,pics of people clubbing them,not enough shotgun shells to kill them all,do you still have a bugs bunny problem over there?
73 340 4sp 2nd owner since 85    brett

Offline lemming303

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Re: A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2009 - 02:01:56 PM »
It has already been said. I live in Texas and even though I live in town here in Weatherford there is hardly any violent crime. You have to go deep into Fort Worth or Dallas where the majority of people who live there are "City People". Criminals don't try to rob houses in the country because everyone who lives in the country owns at least one gun. Most people I know own at least 5. Why would you rob someone's house who most likely owns a gun when you can into town and rob some liberal's house who has not a single one? Even the dumbest criminal knows the answer to that one.

So, with that said, why should we change that just to cater to some biased ,liberal, sheltered politicians who have no idea what they are talking about?

People will kill people no matter what. It has been going on since long before guns were around. People will just use knives or boards with nails in them or whatever.

The constitution because of how bad British rule was over us. We did not like it one bit and did not want it to ever come to that again. So we put in place the constitution which is there to protect us as individuals. If we go changing what it says on just one of the rights then that makes it easier to change it on other rights as well, such as freedom of religion, freedom of speech, the pursuit of happiness and so on.
Kevin

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Offline JH27N0B

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Re: A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2009 - 03:25:27 PM »
As one with an engineering education, I have been trained in problem solving.  And when I see politicians and those in the news media advocating gun control, I cringe because I do not see them using any valid problem solving techniques.
First of all, you need to define the problem.  They would tell you "gun violence".  I would ask why they limit it to "gun violence", isn't the problem just "violence"?
Am I any better off if someone beats me to death with a baseball bat or stabs me instead of shooting me?
They blame the gun, but I ask, does the gun make someone violent?  Do decent well adjusted people walk past a gun shop and suddenly find themselves transformed by exposure to those guns into becoming someone who is going to shoot someone?  Obviously not.  The guns do not cause someone to become violent, they are just a tool someone who is predisposed to that type of behavior might use to act out.
Unfortunately the problem is violent and unstable people, and there are no easy answers to trying to identify them and protect our society from them, and to figure out how to prevent people from becoming that way in the first place.
To do so would mean addressing issues like poverty, drugs, poor education, single parent families, poor education, poor job prospects, mental health, etc.  Very complicated! But they are all serious problems that should be addressed.
So it is easy to just focus on a tool, in this case guns.  But that does not make the gun control advocates correct, I would argue they are lazy.
Engineers are also trained to research things that have been done in the past and also analyze the effectiveness of past solutions and new proposed solutions.  In this case, how effective have our gun control laws that have been enacted over the years been?  Can they be enforced, why are they not enforced better, and why would our track record with new gun control laws be any more effective?
The areas where crime rates including those involving guns is the worst, typically are the areas with the strictest gun laws.  Why are these laws not enforced or why can't they be enforced?
Advocates claim that people buy guns in places where the laws are more lenient, and bring them into areas where the laws are strict.  However, if you research gun laws you will find doing that already violates a number of local, state and federal laws.  Why not enforce the laws that already exist?
We can also study bans and highly restrictive laws on other items to see if they are effective.  How about prohibition?  It created a large black market, enriched organized crime, and didn't do much to prevent people from getting liquor.  It was eventually repealed.
Few would argue our laws about drugs have been effective.  Billions of dollars have been spent, we have the largest prison population in the entire world and a large percentage of prisoners are incarcerated for drug possession or distribution.  Violent gangs have been enriched smuggling and distributing drugs.  Have laws against drugs kept drugs out of the hands of anyone who wants to buy them?  I think the war on drugs has been a failure in every way and have only enriched bad guys and have put drug users in jail instead of into treatment, where their lives might be helped instead of further damaged.
So how could further more restrictive laws on guns be successful and economical?  I don't hear any advocates answering that question?
It's easy to focus on the tool, but finding real solutions and answers is a very tough job, and the sooner we focus our attention on that, the better off we as a society will be, in many ways, not just in reducing violent crime.
 

Offline wiiildcat

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Re: A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2009 - 06:33:36 PM »
No guns would just increase the Timothy Mcveigh's of the world, if they want to kill there are plenty of ways for them to do it.

Offline AprilsPink72Cuda

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Re: A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2009 - 06:38:02 PM »
Here is a poll about guns and our 2nd ammendment. Please vote...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/quickquestion/2007/november/popup5895.htm

I am happy to say that my pistol permit came in the mail today, and 2 months earlier than I expected. 


 



Offline acudanut

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Re: A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2009 - 07:07:09 PM »
  Where can I buy a M-2 .

Offline MEK-Dangerfield

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Re: A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2009 - 07:34:00 PM »

I am happy to say that my pistol permit came in the mail today, and 2 months earlier than I expected.


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Offline lemming303

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Re: A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2009 - 08:22:32 PM »
jh27 put it very well, much better than I could have done.

The problem is not that they are trying to find a solution. They don't like guns and see "violence" as a route to do away with them.
Kevin

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wagesofsin

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Re: A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2009 - 09:19:55 PM »
lets move back to the old west shall we. everyone had a firearm. most were utilitarian, some not. from little jimmy, to the town doc, to the librarian.
actual crime reports state the old west was not a violent wasteland, but a serene, working community. why?
everyone respected each other.

and anyhow, im thinking we have way worse issues steaming at us in the near future to worry about.

nobodys taking my guns, at least not while im breathing. but im wondering what im gonna be able to do with them thats a concern of mine.

just my  :2cents:
« Last Edit: April 02, 2009 - 09:22:55 PM by wagesofsin »

Offline OzCuda

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Re: A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2009 - 01:38:17 AM »
Well, now that sorted - how about those 'clunker laws'.  :cheers:
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