Teenage Moral Crisis

[TiMopar]

moparmaniac, thanks for starting this post. This is a very important subject. Lots of good responses.

I have been a Christian for a little over thirty years. I was a pagan and a "nice guy" before that. A brief lesson in theology here for all you self-proclaimed atheists. Most people think the opposite of "sin" is "good". And , truth be told, it really doesn't take a whole lot of effort to live a "good" life. But in God's lexicon, the opposite of "sin" is not "good". The opposite of "sin" is no sin. And that, my friend, is not a condition you can attain on your own behalf. It is a gift. Heaven is a gift. You get there not because you think you can, but because you know you can't.

I am loathed to contribute to this thread, as a 'self-proclaimed atheist', but as an atheist I should remind you that your comments to me about Religion are irrelevant since I do not believe in a God or a Heaven etc. I wholly agree that you should be able to believe in whatever God or Heaven you want to, but that does not apply to us Atheists, I guess. I am rather confused that one of the God-fearing contributors to this thread has previously posted pictures of one of 'God's beautiful creatures' that he had slaughtered for no apparent reason, and I hardly feel that is a particularly good example to set to children. One thing is undeniable and that is that more killings and atrocities have been committed in the name of God than any other reason and that no one religion is less intolerant or Fascist than any other. Peace be with you.

[lemming303]

I assume the "innocent little animal" you are talking about was mine. And from the way you talk about it I also assume you live well inside a city and buy all your food at a grocery store.

My family hunts for food. We also fish for our food. Those predators, and that's what they are is predators, not "cute little cuddly kitty cats", harm game and livestock populations. Especially when there are too many in one area. For many years people have been controlling the population of those animals, but over the past couple decades or so everyone has been getting soft in this country. "Please don't shoot the cute little kitty cat!" If you raised cattle and were losing calves to bobcats and coyotes every year you wouldn't think the same way. Bobcats, coyotes, and coons are the only animals I don't eat. All the other animals I kill I eat. Those three animals are kept in check by thinning out their population when we can.

Do a little research on how the re-introduced wolf population in Yellowstone park has almost destroyed the Elk and deer population there. All because some people who think they know about animal conservation keep forcing the US to keep that animal in the Endangered list, even though the amount of wolves in the US is now WAY over the number that it was supposed to be changed back to un-endangered at.

So don't judge me on this subject. And especially don't try to say that I'm not a Christian for killing a bobcat.

As far as "killings and atrocities have been committed in the name of God than any other reason and that no one religion is less intolerant or Fascist than any other", I assume you have never been to a Muslim country either. I have been to 5 different Muslim countries and if you live here in the US you know absolutely nothing about Muslims. (no offense on that one, but it's true). Nobody here has any idea what Muslims are like. They kill each other just because their religious leaders tell them too. But that's beside the point.

The Crusades and the Inquisitions were wrong, but that was also a much different time then now. The men who led those were fanatical maniacs. And again, that comes down to free will. Man has a choice to do whatever he wants. But the leaders who persuaded those men to follow them on these Crusades were obviously convoluted and not true Christians.

My post is getting too long, I don't want to dissuade people from reading it so I'm gonna end it here.

Please people, stop using the "more killings and atrocities have been committed in the name of God than any other reason" answer, because it is not true, and it also applies to a much, much different time period then now. You don't know how people thought and behaved 600 years ago so don't use their examples to explain something going on now.

[farmertan]

Your  on a wall check his 3 posts been on for a year and still havent seen a pic of his car,hes only chimed in when it has to do w/his personal beliefs..looks like vegetarian,anti hunter,animals have more rights than humans athiest.Him calling you out like that was totally uncalled for,I do my best to tollerate all kinds of people but i guess he cant.Keep your powder dry and good luck on the next hunt.

[TiMopar]

I assume the "innocent little animal" you are talking about was mine. And from the way you talk about it I also assume you live well inside a city and buy all your food at a grocery store.

My family hunts for food. We also fish for our food. Those predators, and that's what they are is predators, not "cute little cuddly kitty cats", harm game and livestock populations. Especially when there are too many in one area. For many years people have been controlling the population of those animals, but over the past couple decades or so everyone has been getting soft in this country. "Please don't shoot the cute little kitty cat!" If you raised cattle and were losing calves to bobcats and coyotes every year you wouldn't think the same way. Bobcats, coyotes, and coons are the only animals I don't eat. All the other animals I kill I eat. Those three animals are kept in check by thinning out their population when we can.

Do a little research on how the re-introduced wolf population in Yellowstone park has almost destroyed the Elk and deer population there. All because some people who think they know about animal conservation keep forcing the US to keep that animal in the Endangered list, even though the amount of wolves in the US is now WAY over the number that it was supposed to be changed back to un-endangered at.

So don't judge me on this subject. And especially don't try to say that I'm not a Christian for killing a bobcat.

As far as "killings and atrocities have been committed in the name of God than any other reason and that no one religion is less intolerant or Fascist than any other", I assume you have never been to a Muslim country either. I have been to 5 different Muslim countries and if you live here in the US you know absolutely nothing about Muslims. (no offense on that one, but it's true). Nobody here has any idea what Muslims are like. They kill each other just because their religious leaders tell them too. But that's beside the point.

The Crusades and the Inquisitions were wrong, but that was also a much different time then now. The men who led those were fanatical maniacs. And again, that comes down to free will. Man has a choice to do whatever he wants. But the leaders who persuaded those men to follow them on these Crusades were obviously convoluted and not true Christians.

My post is getting too long, I don't want to dissuade people from reading it so I'm gonna end it here.

Please people, stop using the "more killings and atrocities have been committed in the name of God than any other reason" answer, because it is not true, and it also applies to a much, much different time period then now. You don't know how people thought and behaved 600 years ago so don't use their examples to explain something going on now.

Ok, we are never going to change each others beliefs and opinions here. Just got annoyed when someone dragged us Atheists into it, as if it's our fault.
Briefly, I would ask were those people 600 years ago really anymore enlightened than the ones that wrote the religious texts hundreds of years previously? True, I don't know how they thought, yet you choose to follow their preaching seemingly without question...
Yes, you correctly assume that I live in the city, but I do not have a problem with you killing to eat. I have good friends in North America who do the same and I have enjoyed eating the spoils!
I imagine that if I kept livestock I would be equally anxious that it was not predated by wild animals. If I had to kill something like that I don't think I would find pleasure in it and be so proud about it as to post it on the internet, particularly on a car site. However, I feel that if the farmers had their way there would be no 'wild' animals, just a wilderness of crops and cattle, to feed our uncontrolled populations. I feel that those predators have as much right to live on the land as we do. Maybe it would be a good idea to keep better care of the livestock when they are giving birth.
No, I have never been to a Muslim country, nor do I wish or intend to do so. I certainly would not volunteer to join an army to go and visit one with either.

,

[whitesatinmopar]

  Well, it's page four and "things" are headed south pretty fast.  I think it comes from posting personal views over posting logical debate and making them directed to individuals. 

[dutch]

well, it`s been a nice debate.... maybe someone should read the first post again before resuming... I`m out....   

[priderocks]

TiMopar, thanks for your posts. We all need to be challenged in our beliefs, and need to be able to thoughtfully articulate to others why we live the way we live.

In my experience, most people do not go out searching for truth- they are too intellectually lazy for that. Most people don't search for truth and, when they find it, modify their lives to be in line with it. Most people live how they want to live, and look for some philosphical stew that fits their lifestyle.

I have known many Christians who sincerely lived and died what they believe. But I have never known an atheist who did so. Maybe it's because I know how I would live if I truly did not fear, or even believe in, a holy God. I would take whatever I could get from whoever I could get it from. If I wanted my neighbors wife, I'd take her. I'd steal from my boss. I'd shoplift. I'd probably gun down those who made my life inordinately difficult. I would grab all I could amass to myself in this life. That, to me, is all that would make sense. To live as a true atheist should live would seem to require shunning any kind of moral code that deferred to the wishes or needs of anyone else besides yourself. To be an atheist and a "nice guy" has never made any sense to me. To do so requires belief in some moral code for the "nice guy" part. Where does that code come from? Is it of your own making? If so, then all such self-created codes are equally valid. If my particular code involves gassing Jews or preying upon young children for sexual pleasure, I need only be concerned about violating the laws of the land. By extension, an atheist cannot logically criticize anyone for anything they do- it's part of that person's moral code, equally valid as your own.

If fact, the authentic atheist would be totally nonplussed by all that goes on in the world. He would not bat an eye at injustice, cruelty, starvation, or the killing of furry little animals.

[lemming303]

Your  on a wall check his 3 posts been on for a year and still havent seen a pic of his car,hes only chimed in when it has to do w/his personal beliefs..looks like vegetarian,anti hunter,animals have more rights than humans athiest.Him calling you out like that was totally uncalled for,I do my best to tollerate all kinds of people but i guess he cant.Keep your powder dry and good luck on the next hunt.

I'm glad you pointed that out. I never even looked at his posts.

I tried to keep my posts on this subject where they were a debate, as someone had said. If I noticed I was beginning to push Christianity in what I was saying I would delete that line.

TiMopar, it was an atheist who brought atheists into this thread.

Nowhere did I rag on atheists or call them out for being atheists. I believe everyone has a right to their own opinion. Two of my best friends are both atheist, although I wouldn't really consider them true atheists, they just stopped believing in God. Those two men are some of the very best men that I know, and I shared fighting holes with both of them.

Back to the original post though, a lack of God (and by that I mean Christian morals as well) is only part of the problem. There is a MAJOR lack of parenting these days. 

[farmertan]

"However, I feel that if the farmers had their way there would be no 'wild' animals, just a wilderness of crops and cattle, to feed our uncontrolled populations. I feel that those predators have as much right to live on the land as we do. Maybe it would be a good idea to keep better care of the livestock when they are giving birth."
   :screwy:Where do i begin here.My screen name probably gives me away.I could type tons of FACTS that prove that statement is just crackpot but ive learned its hopeless on people who think like that.I'm thinking your a regular member who chose another screen name to say crazy things to stir the pot.

[70burntorangeT/A]

Hey guys we all have our own personal beliefs and we are all entitled to our own beliefes, but sitting here and arguing over them isnt going to change anything (and i am giuity of arguing over my beliefes on here to) but lets all just take a chill pill and relax 

[farmertan]

 :iagree:I bit my tongue for 3 pages and then had a weak moment,sorry.

[tdub2112]

I think what parents need to do is educate there kids about the guns. I have been around guns all my life. Currently we have 10 or so Rifles/shotguns in our hands and 4 handguns. I know what gubs can do, I know what crap they can get you into. But the other side of the coin is the fact that they can get you out of crap too. I have read countless stories of people being killed and people killing people to not get killed.

The bottom line is that bad people have the black market. If a government takes guns away. How are normal law abiding citizens going to defend themselves? Rocks? Sticks?

Austrailia has one of the highest gun related homicide rates in the world. Why?

-Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2%.
-Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6%.
-Australia-wide, armed-robberies are up 44%. (yes, FORTY-FOUR PERCENT)
-In the state of Victoria, homicides-with-firearms are up 300%!
-The steady decrease in homicides-with-firearms that occurred during the previous 25 years became an increase in the last 12 months.
-The steady decrease in armed-robbery-with-firearms that occurred during the previous 25 years became an increase in the last 12 months.
-There has been a dramatic increase in breakins-and-assaults-of-the-elderly.
-At the time of the ban, the Prime Minister said "self-defense is not a reason for owning a firearm".
-From 1910 to present, homicides in Australia have averaged about 1.8-per-100,000 or lower, a safe society by any standard.
-The ban has destroyed Australia's standings in some international sport shooting competitions.

Education. THAT is what makes the world a better place.

[70RAGTOPR/T]

My son attended Hampton U for a year, all we heard were the killings and fights.  Now he lives in Philly, not much better.  The young today don't believe in life like we did when we were growing up.  They feel that taking a life is a right of passage.  Also, the law is lax.  It use to be that when one got a life sentence, it ment life.  Now it's seven years.  Also, where can you get a warm bed, 3 square meals, cable TV and have someone else pay for it? That's just my  .

[Alaskan_TA]

Good parenting = good kids.

Bad parenting = bad kids.

[70burntorangeT/A]

My son attended Hampton U for a year, all we heard were the killings and fights.  Now he lives in Philly, not much better.  The young today don't believe in life like we did when we were growing up.  They feel that taking a life is a right of passage.  Also, the law is lax.  It use to be that when one got a life sentence, it ment life.  Now it's seven years.  Also, where can you get a warm bed, 3 square meals, cable TV and have someone else pay for it? That's just my  .

I believe that 1st degree (pre-meditated) murnder should be automatic death penalty.   And no more them 2 or 3 years on death row.  The average time between sentencing and excecution in the US is 153 months. thats 12.75 years. Our tax dollars are paying for all of those peoples living expenses for on average 153 months, when they are just going to be excecuted anyways? doesnt make much sense to me.