Front Spoiler...debate.

[Pale Rider]

I found this interesting topic on rear spoilers. I did an extensive search for a similar discussion about the chin front spoilers, but couldn't find it.
So why not start one myself? 

A short introduction; I own a '70 Challenger with a 440 SixPack and a 4 speed (non original) and are in the process of getting the handling as good as possible.
I use Mike Martin's 'Super Street Mopar' as a guide to accomplish this.
Done this so far: 0.96 T bars, 1.12 F sway bar, 0.88 R sway bar, US car tool subframe connectors, KYB shocks, new 6 leafs springs, new bushings all around (no poly; I know, not wise, but did that a few years ago before I was into this handling thing...), 17" AR 500 rims with Falken 452 tires.

Now the reason for this topic. In chapter 6 of that book, Aerodynamics, spoilers are discussed. Benefits of a front spoiler are increased front-end down force and improved radiator outflow and cooling.
Since I'm not a big fan of 'showing off' elements on my car like spoilers, decals, emblems, stripes, whatever, I want to know of you guys out there if those chin spoilers are just an optical enhancement or that they improve handling at high speeds (>60 mph)?

Since a thread is worthless without pics, here's one 

grtz, Roland

[73Chally]

Are you going to be doing road course racing?  If not, then I can't imagine you will see any appreciable effect from the chin spoilers.  It will help with high speed straightaways and sweeping turns.

[Pale Rider]

No plans for any kind of racing (yet).
With this setup it handles corners the way I want it.
I guess I want to know if those chin spoilers will keep the car better on track than without, when driving at very high speeds (yes I sometimes do, see my signature-videos  )(and the German autobahns are not so far away)

[73Chally]

I'd probably leave it as is.  I think the spoiler would be more for flash than effective.  By the way, very nice car.  We need more pics!

[MEK-Dangerfield]

I put them on for flash. Given how they are mounted, I can't believe they do much, if anything as far as handling goes. Too small.

[Bullitt-]

Two things we know,  aerodynamics were not considered much in the 60's when E-bodies were designed.   Newer vehicles which are aero designed have somewhat of a front air dam.

Nightmare I had recently

[HP2]

Much like the rear spoiler debate you read, many of the same principles apply to the front. It does not take much front spoiler to increase down force and improvements in air flow can be seen as low as 60-65 mph. Obviously the larger and lower they get, the more effective they become. It also is like many other mods and should be balanced with rear spoilers. Additionally, if they are creating more force, other changes to the suspension to work with the force may also be required.

A chin spoiler is probably more effective on creating down force on '70 model Challengers than some other years for the simple fact that the 1970 grill is a huge divot in the air flow that captures air and generates lift. The 71-74 models have grills that are more flush with the front of the car and will push more air around the car than the '70 models will. Since you do get to take high speed sprints with your car, do you think the force generated would be an enhancement? Does the front feel light at triple digit speeds? If so, you may benefit from one.

If you go with one, you will likely have to fabricate one. The generic ones offered by MAS are not strong enough and no one out there makes a rigid fiberglass one for Challengers. Here is a picture of one I made for my Challenger out of .040 aluminum. Fabbing brackets was a major pain in the rear. It also is large enough that negotiating driveways, curb cuts, and road dips becomes a concern. Interestingly enough, it sits as low as a much smaller MAS piece I used to have even though it has much more area. Sorry, I can't provide any coast down data, coolant temp or down force info. Both spoilers are off my car and it is getting a make over.

[Pale Rider]

It also is like many other mods and should be balanced with rear spoilers.

After reading the rear spoiler debate I decided not to go for that one. Also because a rear spoiler is very visible, and those chin spoilers, especially on my black car, are pretty incognito.
But you would say that chin spoilers without a matching rear spoiler is a no go?

Additionally, if they are creating more force, other changes to the suspension to work with the force may also be required.

With the setup that I mentioned above, is it likely that I need mods, and if so, what kind?

Does the front feel light at triple digit speeds?

Good question. Nice excuse to do some high speed testing. 

If you go with one, you will likely have to fabricate one.

If I go for a front spoiler, it will be those chin/eyebrow spoilers. I know that bigger is better in this case, but the (lack of) looks is also important for me.
I see that Year One sells the plastic (and the fiberglass) ones. Those plastic ones are not strong enough?

[boydsdodge]

I think you should go with the T/A spoilers front and rear..
Then later if you want you can increase the front a lil to a one piece.

[HP2]

After reading the rear spoiler debate I decided not to go for that one. Also because a rear spoiler is very visible, and those chin spoilers, especially on my black car, are pretty incognito.
But you would say that chin spoilers without a matching rear spoiler is a no go?

Not necessarily, but by putting more force on the front than the back, you could create a high speed oversteer conditon.

With the setup that I mentioned above, is it likely that I need mods, and if so, what kind?

With your set up, intended use, and proposed spoilers, probably no changes are required. If enough force is generated, than higher spring rates are required to prevent a car from bottoming out. This would translate to heavier leafs and bigger t-bars.

If I go for a front spoiler, it will be those chin/eyebrow spoilers. I know that bigger is better in this case, but the (lack of) looks is also important for me.
I see that Year One sells the plastic (and the fiberglass) ones. Those plastic ones are not strong enough?

Those are probably sufficiently rigid. However, because of their size and location, they won't generate a large amount of down force, but will divert a fair amount of air into the lower radiator opening.

[brads70]

Much like the rear spoiler debate you read, many of the same principles apply to the front. It does not take much front spoiler to increase down force and improvements in air flow can be seen as low as 60-65 mph. Obviously the larger and lower they get, the more effective they become. It also is like many other mods and should be balanced with rear spoilers. Additionally, if they are creating more force, other changes to the suspension to work with the force may also be required.

A chin spoiler is probably more effective on creating down force on '70 model Challengers than some other years for the simple fact that the 1970 grill is a huge divot in the air flow that captures air and generates lift. The 71-74 models have grills that are more flush with the front of the car and will push more air around the car than the '70 models will. Since you do get to take high speed sprints with your car, do you think the force generated would be an enhancement? Does the front feel light at triple digit speeds? If so, you may benefit from one.

If you go with one, you will likely have to fabricate one. The generic ones offered by MAS are not strong enough and no one out there makes a rigid fiberglass one for Challengers. Here is a picture of one I made for my Challenger out of .040 aluminum. Fabbing brackets was a major pain in the rear. It also is large enough that negotiating driveways, curb cuts, and road dips becomes a concern. Interestingly enough, it sits as low as a much smaller MAS piece I used to have even though it has much more area. Sorry, I can't provide any coast down data, coolant temp or down force info. Both spoilers are off my car and it is getting a make over.

Do you have any pictures from the rear of your homemade chin spoiler? I'm curious how it attaches?

[Pale Rider]

The generic ones offered by MAS are not strong enough and no one out there makes a rigid fiberglass one for Challengers.

Thanks to the Challenger front spoiler options ? topic I now understand what you mean with the MAS one:

Looks neat underneath that Cuda. Like the look much better than the chin spoliers because this one could create the illusion that it is an integral part of the front valance, in stead of the chin spoliers which have this 'add on' feel.
But there is this draw back of not being rigid enough?
Does it come off at high speeds or can a bug-hit make a big hole or or...?

Seems to me the ideal spoiler for me; not to big (like TransAm style one) to make suspencion changes necessary because of a massive increase in downforce, not to small (like the chin spoilers) to make it just a cosmetic change. And I think it is incognito enough for me since it blends with the form of the valance.

[HP2]

My avatar Challenger has one of those under it, so it is somewhat inconspicuos under darker vehicles. I've got a better picture of the front of it, but I'll need to resize it to post it. I'll also get some photos of the backside and mounting of the larger race style spoiler as well.

[brads70]

Thanks that would be great!
Brad

[HP2]

The MAS is not a bad looking piece, it just lacks sufficient mounting surface to keep it in place. With some fabricated braces, it would be a very nice piece. 1st pic is the backside of the MAS unit. It is a thin 3/4 to 1 lip, although you may not be able to easily see that with the tape. I kept the pics small to speed loading.

Next two pics are of the MAS compared to a Posey style copy installed on the car. IMO the Posey spoiler needs a steeper angle of attack and could be narrowed an additional 3-4 inches per side.

Neither spoiler mounts up nicely beneath my car. There are only a few smooth panels on my whole car, so they may close up better once I restore the proper curves to the car. If there is a rat rod equal for muscle cars, I've got it.


Next pic is the two lying together on the floor. Considerable size difference.

Next pic is the backside mounting brackets on my fabricated units. I made two of them, one with slots that allowed each tab to be bent at a different level. This follows the contour of the valance better than the flat version, but neither was ideal. Both versions need more angle to them.

I'll probably play around with the aluminum versions some more to see if I can get a design I like better. With some reinforcement and mounting brackets, the MAS unit could be quite nice and stout enough to be effective.