Author Topic: Hotchkis Suspension Mopar Open House Report and Pictures  (Read 4146 times)

Offline autoxcuda

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Hotchkis Suspension Mopar Open House Report and Pictures
« on: July 20, 2009 - 08:00:33 AM »
This was really a special event where a vendor opened it's doors, really put a lot of effort, thought things out thoroughly, and it resulted in a first class experience.

Every participant I talked to felt it exceeded their expectations. I heard stuff like: "If I'd known it was going to be like this, I would have brought more of my mopar buddies". Or, "I wasn't planning on staying very long, but I changed my mind". Another asked, "Are they doing another one of these next year?"

The complete Hotchkis organization contributed in seminar from the owner John Hotchkis, to Aaron the head engineer, to Drew in technical sales support, to Dan in marketing. They gave a great explanation of alignment, suspension, and handling. Even if you weren't into the handling thing, there was something to learn about basic suspension.

As you can imagine. I had a clip board full of questions. I put them through the ringer and it didn't stop after the seminar.

Highlights:

Looking at the big picture: they are developing a complete suspension systems for Mopars called TVS. This will include items like front and rear springs, upper control arms, heim aluminum tube tie rods, heim strut rods, sway bars, and frame connectors. They are shooting for a $3000 price point without shocks. Their TVS systems are designed to be bolt on and give the best value for actual real world performance gained. Not a bunch of bling for the sake of being bling.

Asking about how they develop products: they have a complete R & D fabrication shop facility to test the products engineered with 3-D suspension analysis, CAD developed, and stress analysis. Once the geometries are figured on the computer they are tested and measured with the proper tools that I saw around their shop snooping around: items like scrub gauges, bump steer gauges, full laser alignment rack, etc to use on an actual car. That was very good to hear and see.

On the product front: within 90-120 days they will be releasing a bunch of new A-body products. Look for lightweight hollow front and adjustable rear sway bars, leaf springs, frame connectors, and revised geometry upper control arms, to name a few items.

Sneak peak into the future: look for a line of custom valved shocks around the 120 day range. I asked about price points and they are thinking 3 different performance and price levels. A $100/ea, $200/ea, and $400/ea shocks to match their TVS systems.



Let's see them sweat with a bunch of questions in front of 150 people :stirpot: -I grilled them with some mild and not so mild tech questions.


"Why did you take the anti dive out of the E-body upper control arms?" (Anti dive is angle of the upper A-arm viewed from the side)

-Hotchkis noticed a bunch of bump steer caused by the large amount of anti dive front geometry on the E and B bodies. They still have some anti dive geometry but it's not needed for the enthusiast driver and they can specifically design it just for an E-body. They've tested it on the street and track. -The amount of stock anti dive was needed to keep grandmas /6 station wagon and nose heavy 4,000 lbs hemi cars with drum brakes on a cold day fool proof and bound up a little when the least common denominator driver slams on the brakes. Remember the front end geometry on an Ebody is completely shared with a '71 426 Hemi Charger to a '72 loaded 400 cid Coronet Crestwood Station Wagon.

*BTW they said the A-bodies they tested have a lot less bump steer then the B and E bodies. And they probably won't need much correction in the Upper A-arm, if any. Still developing...


"A lot of companies offered 4 links suspensions in the rear, what have you done with the leaf spring setup?"

-Hotchkis found that raising the front spring eye helped reduce roll steer in the rear. They also have special rear leafs that take advantage of Mopars superior short front, long rear segment springs. Just like they help at the drags, they help handling. Hotchkis has spring made with a stout front spring segment to resist twisting and wheel hop with the rear segement carrying the spring action. They said they are light weight than stock.


"By the way, if you just want to add a stock sway bar to a mopar you have to buy and install special $125 to $175 sway bar type lower control arms. You guys make those same brackets for only $30 that people could just weld on to their early or late lower control arms already on their car. Maybe you should have a product release just for those in the Magazines"

-"Uh... I guess that is a market for those. Funny you say that, a guy in Alabama or Arkansas has been buying tons of them." :munky2:

*Picture of the tabs: http://www.hotchkis.net/early_mopar_control_arm_bracket.html 73-76 style: http://www.hotchkis.net/late_mopar_control_arm_bracket.html

"Why do all the companies that offer greasable swaybar bushing put the zerk fitting at the very bottom where it can easily be broken off by road debris or a curb?"

-We'll look into that.



I did get their head engineer and autocross driver to drive my Cuda. That was cool. :-D


Video of event:

http://www.motorator.com/videos/799[/url]













71 Demon Hotchkis test car:



« Last Edit: July 20, 2009 - 10:11:15 AM by autoxcuda »
Spring Fling XXX
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at Woodley Park Van Nuys, CA.
Special 30th Anniversary Event!
600+ Mopars, 300+ swappers,  50+ manf. midways.
Thrus: Mopar Track Day at Willow Springs Raceway
Fri: Caravan & Cruise
Sat: Mopar Cruise-In




Offline autoxcuda

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Re: Hotchkis Suspension Mopar Open House Report and Pictures
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2009 - 08:02:28 AM »




Spring Fling XXX
April 22 & 23 2016

at Woodley Park Van Nuys, CA.
Special 30th Anniversary Event!
600+ Mopars, 300+ swappers,  50+ manf. midways.
Thrus: Mopar Track Day at Willow Springs Raceway
Fri: Caravan & Cruise
Sat: Mopar Cruise-In

Offline 67vertman

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Re: Hotchkis Suspension Mopar Open House Report and Pictures
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2009 - 10:50:16 AM »
Very cool, and a great read.  Thanks for sharing.  :2thumbs:

Know I am off to check out thier website.   :ebay:



Ron - Born and raised in Southern California

I got the 1970 Cuda, but still need the hot blonde to ride shotgun!

First car -1969 Road Runner 383 4sp

Current ride - 1970 Barracuda 440-6 4 sp Dana 60  (4:10)

Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: Hotchkis Suspension Mopar Open House Report and Pictures
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2009 - 11:43:54 AM »
Awesome stuff!  :2thumbs:

Glad to hear they're working on a-body stuff too. It refreshing to see someone actually doing something a little different, most of the other suspension systems out there retain the stock geometry exactly, or replace all of it completely. Not that its necessarily a bad thing, but its always good to have options. I just wish they're stuff didn't cost TWICE as much as everything else out there... :money:

Offline autoxcuda

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Re: Hotchkis Suspension Mopar Open House Report and Pictures
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2009 - 07:40:08 PM »
Awesome stuff!  :2thumbs:

Glad to hear they're working on a-body stuff too. It refreshing to see someone actually doing something a little different, most of the other suspension systems out there retain the stock geometry exactly, or replace all of it completely. Not that its necessarily a bad thing, but its always good to have options. I just wish they're stuff didn't cost TWICE as much as everything else out there... :money:

Make sure to compare apple to oranges.

The A-arms are comparable to double adjustable A-arms that sell for $400, Not the $250 ones. And those have no geometry adjustment or addtional hardware for that.

The sway bar is a hollow tube design and saves a bunch of weight when you run 1 1/4 sized bar. I have an E-body 1 1/4" sway bar, it's heavy at around 3 times as heavy as stock.  :22yikes: The weight savings is like buying a Big Block aluminum water pump housing ($100 Chinese, $175 U.S. made). So you should factor in the weight savings comparing it to a $140 Addco with cruddy mounting and look at the bushing brackets Hotchkis has.  :bigshades: They're like some cast aluminum block.

Hotchkis rear sway bars are hollow and 3 way adjustable. The dogbone type endlinks eliminates the binding and tight fitting with the $140 Addco rear bars. And you don't put a U-bolt through the frame rail that could pull out.

The idea here is to improve the geometry and enhance what you have in such a way you don't need a completely custom tubular front end and high dollar modifications that give very similar handling results.

I think the results will be near the same and it will retain it's K-frame, T-bars, and leaf springs.

Lots of people who are not racers are spending their money on custom K-frames, tubular lower control arms, coilovers, 4 link rear ends... This is an alternative for many people.


« Last Edit: July 20, 2009 - 10:04:07 PM by autoxcuda »
Spring Fling XXX
April 22 & 23 2016

at Woodley Park Van Nuys, CA.
Special 30th Anniversary Event!
600+ Mopars, 300+ swappers,  50+ manf. midways.
Thrus: Mopar Track Day at Willow Springs Raceway
Fri: Caravan & Cruise
Sat: Mopar Cruise-In

Offline brads70

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Re: Hotchkis Suspension Mopar Open House Report and Pictures
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2009 - 07:56:18 PM »
Interesting....I know you usually get what you pay for but the price is a little steep. Looks like good quality stuff though! I like the lightweight parts!
As the old saying goes
"going fast costs money, how fast do you want to go?...."
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline Bearcuda

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Re: Hotchkis Suspension Mopar Open House Report and Pictures
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2009 - 08:06:23 PM »
Great stuff. I was happy to read more about them as I have been considering their upper control arms for my Cuda and Charger. After reading about some catastrophic failures from another reputable companies control arms, I'm glad to see that they seem to know their stuff.
1973 Cuda 440
1971 Javelin SST

Offline autoxcuda

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Re: Hotchkis Suspension Mopar Open House Report and Pictures
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2009 - 10:13:53 PM »
Very cool, and a great read.  Thanks for sharing.  :2thumbs:

Know I am off to check out thier website.   :ebay:

You're local.  You should have came and checked things out.
Spring Fling XXX
April 22 & 23 2016

at Woodley Park Van Nuys, CA.
Special 30th Anniversary Event!
600+ Mopars, 300+ swappers,  50+ manf. midways.
Thrus: Mopar Track Day at Willow Springs Raceway
Fri: Caravan & Cruise
Sat: Mopar Cruise-In

Offline Travis72

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Re: Hotchkis Suspension Mopar Open House Report and Pictures
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2009 - 12:17:53 AM »
Nice write up!  Thanks for sharing.  I had the complete Hotchkis TVS on my Dakota R/T and it was a nice setup.  Definitely made it fun to autox.  :D  I also like the hollow sway bars... I had a early Hotchkis setup that had a solid bar, while my buddies Hotchkis setup on his Dakota had the hollow bar and there was a large weight difference.

In the pictures, the rear leaf spring almost looks like a mono-leaf or was that just the rear segment?

Thanks,
Travis
72 Cuda

Offline autoxcuda

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Re: Hotchkis Suspension Mopar Open House Report and Pictures
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2009 - 12:56:26 AM »
Nice write up!  Thanks for sharing.  I had the complete Hotchkis TVS on my Dakota R/T and it was a nice setup.  Definitely made it fun to autox.  :D  I also like the hollow sway bars... I had a early Hotchkis setup that had a solid bar, while my buddies Hotchkis setup on his Dakota had the hollow bar and there was a large weight difference.

In the pictures, the rear leaf spring almost looks like a mono-leaf or was that just the rear segment?
...

That was just the rear segment, the front segment was very stout with a thick spring pack. The thick front resists wrapup and wheel hop. They said thier leaf springs weigh less than stock. Another weight savings.

Interesting the change of the front spring hanger up reduced roll steer. BTW 4 links can have roll steer too. It's not something that only leaf springs have.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2009 - 01:23:00 AM by autoxcuda »
Spring Fling XXX
April 22 & 23 2016

at Woodley Park Van Nuys, CA.
Special 30th Anniversary Event!
600+ Mopars, 300+ swappers,  50+ manf. midways.
Thrus: Mopar Track Day at Willow Springs Raceway
Fri: Caravan & Cruise
Sat: Mopar Cruise-In

Offline HP2

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Re: Hotchkis Suspension Mopar Open House Report and Pictures
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2009 - 09:11:01 AM »
I'd sure like to get my hands on those strut rods.

I've actually been toying with the idea of creating a front strut mount made from a chevy upper ball joint and a tubular threaded rod. Their struts would save me the trouble.

Offline brads70

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Re: Hotchkis Suspension Mopar Open House Report and Pictures
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2009 - 02:43:02 PM »
I'd sure like to get my hands on those strut rods.

I've actually been toying with the idea of creating a front strut mount made from a chevy upper ball joint and a tubular threaded rod. Their struts would save me the trouble.

Not that hard to makle yourself? Everything I see could be bought at any bearing supply ? Just need a tap for the tubular rod?  Tap one end right hand the other left hand and it could be adjustable ON the car?That's just me though ....I'm cheap and prefer to make everything I can myself.
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline HP2

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Re: Hotchkis Suspension Mopar Open House Report and Pictures
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2009 - 08:56:03 AM »
True, and it would not be too hard to do. However, I'm slowly coming to grips with the reality that I don't always have the time to make the stuff I know I could for half the price I can buy it for. My wife reminds me of this at each trip we make to Lowes or Home Depot.

That is an interesting thought on the roll steer situation. I thougth the splayed leafs of an E body were designed to minimize that already, but I've never done much analysis on it.

Offline autoxcuda

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Re: Hotchkis Suspension Mopar Open House Report and Pictures
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2009 - 12:38:15 PM »
...

That is an interesting thought on the roll steer situation. I thougth the splayed leafs of an E body were designed to minimize that already, but I've never done much analysis on it.

The front spring eye is raised upward.

I don't know if they changed the for and aft angle of the leaf springs that E-bodies have. They are non paralell, right?
Spring Fling XXX
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at Woodley Park Van Nuys, CA.
Special 30th Anniversary Event!
600+ Mopars, 300+ swappers,  50+ manf. midways.
Thrus: Mopar Track Day at Willow Springs Raceway
Fri: Caravan & Cruise
Sat: Mopar Cruise-In

Offline HP2

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Re: Hotchkis Suspension Mopar Open House Report and Pictures
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2009 - 01:25:03 PM »
Yes. E and F bodies have the front eyes in a few degrees compared to the rear eyes. Later B bodies are the opposite with the front eyes wider than thr rear eyes.

I know changing the spring eye location alters roll center height location, but not a large amount. Similarly it will also impact anti-squat forces as well. Perhaps the combination effect is beneficial.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009 - 01:28:33 PM by HP2 »