visited the tranny shop for the followup....

[moper]

Shad, I can sympathize with you... but it does seem you are simply not persuing the paths that would fix it. On the balance issue, replacing was suggested a long time ago, but you want the instant solution. Now, with the trans and the thunking, Terry has given you the problem, and the indicator that this dude is an idiot, AND it's their problem for not replacing the parts. BTW, if they used teflon sealing rings on the pump support you have a much less likely chance of having that low rpm pressure leakage. Also... The vibration I suggested would tear things up over time will also cause those sealing rings to be hammered with pressure spikes and bad harmonics. I dont mena to sound harsh. But in terms of a "bench build"... it still has to work when you install it. This is very obviously an internal problem and you should pull the trans when you do the convertor and drop it back to them to properly fix it on thier dime.

[73Chally]

   I know you really have the bug to drive it while the weather is still nice, but you need to get that thing out and get it back to the shop before something else goes wrong and it does become your problem.

[shadango]

Shad, I can sympathize with you... but it does seem you are simply not persuing the paths that would fix it. On the balance issue, replacing was suggested a long time ago, but you want the instant solution. Now, with the trans and the thunking, Terry has given you the problem, and the indicator that this dude is an idiot, AND it's their problem for not replacing the parts. BTW, if they used teflon sealing rings on the pump support you have a much less likely chance of having that low rpm pressure leakage. Also... The vibration I suggested would tear things up over time will also cause those sealing rings to be hammered with pressure spikes and bad harmonics. I dont mena to sound harsh. But in terms of a "bench build"... it still has to work when you install it. This is very obviously an internal problem and you should pull the trans when you do the convertor and drop it back to them to properly fix it on thier dime.

It really isnt that simple.

"Not persuing" ?   It has been on my mind almost 24/7.

Some of the suggestions for the issue was that it could be a harmonic balancer or perhaps one of the accessories on the front end of the engine...I have taken time to try all that first, since they were the quicker/faster/simpler things to try. Unfortunately for me, they netted me no improvement. 

I am not all that experienced yet and its not as simple for me as "just drop the tranny".  I have installed a total of ONE tranny in my life on my own.....this one.  Never removed one on my own.  So part of it is talking through the cold feet.

I am not looking for an "instant solution".  If I was, I would have figured out that THAT wasn't going to happen many posts ago..........I know that replacing the converter is the next logical step here.

The vibration didn't cause the leak/double bump problem.....it happened right after I got the tranny back and installed....i just didn't know how to replicate it....the car has to be 100% warmed up, and it took some time before I was driving the car enough to get it to that point where it would do it on demand so I could replicate it for the shop.  If the vibration caused the problem that quickly, it should have gotten worse the more I drove it....it would be doing it more and more......and its not.  The shop insists it ISNT an internal problem.  They are either lying about that ir they really believe it.  Either way, that trouble is in their court.

Yeah, I can "just replace it".....assuming the "it" you are referring to is the torque convertor. it really is that simple I suppose on the surface.

But, there are several issues  for me to consider. 

First, the shop is telling me to first do this washer test thing, which both terry and I agree isnt going to work.  they said they would exchange the convertor , but only with the washer test as a pre-requisite.  Otherwise they suggested I will eat the cost.  Ok, I accept that I guess.

Second, the shop is telling me adamantly that I should not use a higher stall convertor....that the extra heat will cause problems in this tranny and that I dont need it.  They may be right or wrong about that.....its what they are saying.  Again, I am not experienced in how a high stall converter would drive....I am going by what folks here and the shop says..and right now the shop and the folks here seem to be 180 degrees apart.

Third, the shop is telling me that they feel the slipping/clunking is due to one thing (adjusting the pressure regulator screw) which I sensed as BS the second he said it....but that they want me to drop off the tranny "while its out if (I) do replace the torque convertor"......so I have to basically decide how to breach that with them...

I can lie and say that I did the washer test and that I felt some change....and get a stock TC from them.....reinstall and then if the vibration persists I eat the cost of a reman stock converter.....but that would be dishonest.

Or, tell them that I am going with a high stall TC anyways and that I feel that the washer test wont prove anything and just waste time, challenging what they suggested...then go through the swap and if it doesn't do squat, its all on me.....

If I do take it back to them to check the pump (as the shop said they wanted to do), they could very easily say that the pump is bad (whether it is or not)....then pin it on the vibration....if the TC doesnt solve it, I am then on the hook for that cost .

Yeah, trust is a major issue here.

These issues intermingle here and affect the warranty I am supposed to have on the tranny and the relationship I have with the shop, and therefore my $1150 I have into it already.   

Had I shipped the tranny to Terry to be done , I probably wouldn't be where I am at right now.....but I had a local shop do it....they did the work, not Terry.  I can't say to them "A tranny expert online says ______"....They will say "Then you should have had that expert do your tranny."  I have to proceed very cautiously with them to avoid pissing them off if I want them to honor the warranty.  Trying not to burn bridges.

If I just replace the converter and install a high stall in its place, the shop could try and blame me for any problems.  I just get the vibe that they might try that.  But replacing with just a standard stall convertor will leave me exactly where I am now should the balance issue be internal to the engine....it would be nice to net some upgrade for going through the work of removing and reinstalling the tranny this next time.

After hearing from folks, including Terry, I do believe I want the high stall unit....not knowing the cam I assume I have and having high gears right now in the rear affect THAT decision as well.....terry has suggested a high stall unit based on what I have told him......in reality, I know that you cant always accurately make a call like this over the web.....he is relying on my descriptions of what the car runs like etc to base his recommendations on....but in the  end, if its wrong, I am in the hole for the cost of the converter and any fallout from that if its wrong.

That, plus I simply cant get to it right now...the warranty goes til next may.......I already told the shop that I couldnt get to the R/R for a bit.....I haven't been driving it much due to other family and work stuff.....just been talking it through here to try and get it straight in my head, is all.  I was just about to order the new torque converter when my storage issue popped up.....so I have changed gears while I figure out that aspect.  Trust me, I know that a R/R has to be done....

I am simply taking my time and talking through what I need to do and taking all these factors into consideration....it's how I handle things.....this forum and all the advice I have received on this topic has been invaluable in my getting my head around this.  I know that some may see all these posts as my looking for a quick fix, but just know that it is me talking things through and trying to make sure I go the route that covers the most bases.

<sigh>....My head hurts and I need to go to bed.  LOL

But thanks for the feedback.   I appreciate everyone's patience.

[moper]

lol...

 

The vibration is not related to the tranny rebuild issue. You stated it was there before hand. So what I'm saying is take the trans out and hand it back to them. That is what they are responsible for. The vibration issue is seperate and not their problem IMO. The fact they can't explain the double-thunk IS a problem. Air testing which is probably what they did may or may not show this issue, especially if they like trans assembly grease. BTW, if you pick up a book on 727s in the troubleshooting section there is usually a line on the leaky pump rings and the results of them. So internet or library, knowledge is the answer. Facts against thier opinions, if you will.
In terms of the "high stall".. The factory used the same "high stalls" behind 383 RR Magnums as the Hemis. They do not create a ton of extra heat. The race type convertors do. That's because the stall speeds are still low enough (under 2500) that the convertor typically is not slipping, but rather at it's lockup point most of the time. In either case, a $40 add on tranny cooler will go a long way to keeping things cool regardless of the convertor used. I'd just hate to see you get (more) frustrated an end up paying because you are trying to not alienate the shop. Business is business. You paid. They did a substandard job (and you can cite facts to support the problem) and it's up to them to fix it. They shouldnt have to pull the trans, and they are not responsible for misinformation on the convertor fitment, so the washer deal means squat. Bring them the trans and say this time fix it.

 

[shadango]

Yeah, I know its 

LOL   

If all this mess is what I actually get onto the site, can you imagine whats in my freakin' head?!?!?  LOL

Remember...I never ran the engine before I installed the tranny....so no idea if the vibration is in the engine, in the convertor they provided, or in the tranny (from what folks here and at the shop say, that last one isnt possible).

So, the vibration is related to the tranny rebuild in that THEY provided the convertor and it COULD be the issue..... That is why I feel they have any say here as to what convertor is or isnt used -- if the convertor does turn to be the cause if the vibration I am golden....if not, its the engine...and any trouble I am having with the shifting I am concerned they will pin on the vibration.  The tech actually said to me that he was wondering if the vibration caused the shifting issue and thats when I said no way Jose and that it was there from day one from what I can tell.

I am not worried about alienating them as much as I am worried about being hosed.

The tech said he wants to see the tranny if I pull the convertor because he wants to check the pump....saying that the vibration could have damaged it.....he said flat out that the delay shift issue is NOT an issue.....NOT internal.....saying he felt it is a pressure adjustment......no, he wants to see the tranny to look for pump damage caused by the vibration, he says....this sets up the scenario where he goes in and finds damage to the pump,...whether there or not...and now I am potentially on the hook for it.....pending on whether the convertor is or isnt the issue. I get the distinct feeling that he feels it is NOT the convertor and that swapping it out will be a waste of time....I just feel like I am being set up for a second bill to fix stuff even though the shifting issue is all him.

Like I said, the real issue here is an issue of trust with this shop...after hearing you guys point out obvious errors in their thinking, its hard to trust that they did the job right at all...

The convertor Terry suggested  (TCI Breakaway) is advertised to do about 2400-2600 stall, but its a "flash" stall, with supposedly no impact on lower rpms driving..that makes me feel better....so will probably be my choice (Thanks Terry!)...at least if I still have the vibration afterwards I will have that upgrade to show for my effort. ....mate the tranny and new convertor to a 360 crate. 

[shadango]

Well, I took y'alls advice and realized it had to be done.... I pulled the tranny today. 



Took about 5 hrs.....took my time, Barely got the tranny from under the car due to the headers...but it made it....the jack I have has tilt adjustments which made it possible.

So, I did find out that one of the flex plate sections seems to be bent.....I knew it was bent but didnt realize it was this much out....note that I am holding the other three sections flat to the converter pads.



Could the fact that this section has to pull in this much be a factor in the vibration?  Should I get a new one?

Then, noticed the notch on my crank...hadn't noticed it before....I am sure it was there...just didnt think to notice it.  Is this correct? Does this tell anything about the crank?  The notch has a definite shape to it....why is it there?

[Moparal]

The notch in the crank is supposed to be there. The flex plate is ok, as long as you dont see a crack. But it doesnt look like the hub was going into the crankshaft all the way and seating in right. It could be the pictures tho. Also, that looks like a 35 buck regular rebuilt converter that is neutral balance. But def not performance. If you got a big cam, that converter would make the engine bog and drop in rps, also come out the hole very slow

[tactransman]

The flexplate is fine,when it is bolted up it is flat. I have seen many like that.
He knows that it is a regular stock converter,that is why he is wanting to get a stall now that he has it back out.
Make sure you put a little wheel bearing grease in the crank pilot hole so the converter pilot can go in easy.

[shadango]

Terry.....on the flex plate...ok.....I know I had run the "slightly bent" thing past you guys before and you said that back then too.....but if it is straining to bend that section towards the convertor, maybe it is somehow cocking the converter? Or isnt that possible?  I am thinking about chaning the flexplate anyways.  Any performance or anything to be gained by gling with anything but a stock one?

Moparal....can you tell me why you say that about the hub not seating?    What am I looking for?

I did grease it up (thats all the gunk you see there)...and if you look at the crank picture, there is blue paint on the inside of where the converter hub goes.....that's all transferred from the converter.....and the paint is scraped off the front of the converter hub, where it would meet the crank (from turning the convertor to line up holes I guess)....seems like it would be seating.....But I was wondering if it is seating STRAIGHT.....(hence my also thinking about that bent section of flexplate).

How could I find that?  I think I will try seating it by hand and see if it was too tight maybe or something....just for kicks.

But like Terry said, I am getting a converter with some stall in it (Thanks Terry!).....like you said, I think I have at least SOMEcam in the car, and it is a bit of a dog off the line.....of course I also have 2.76s...LOL

I do have to say I have a feeling of accomplishment.....even just at this stage....I tend to make things worse than they are in my head....LOL

Not looking forward to dealing with the shop......Like I said, the tech claims he checked the seals on the input shaft and feels that my shift issue is NOT internal.......I want this fixed RIGHT this time...because I really dont want to have to do a R/R AGAIN for the same issue.

If I still have the vibration when I am done this time, I think a new engine will be the plan.....I dont know what's in the 318....and though it pulls strong, rebuilidng it could get pricey...thinking about a crate 360 that is bored/stroked.....somewhere in the $4,000-$5,000 ballpark....Have to convince the wife of that though...LOL

A a a side bar --  When I go to cruises, I tend to get into conversations with folks...have learned a lot that way as well as on here.....Twice now, the topic of my vibration comes up....just happened again last night....each time the other guy says that he once had a 318 that did the same thing...tried converters, rebuilding lower end, drivetrain balancing etc.....and could never find the issue....Maybe its the same engine jut being recirculated and I happened to get it this time! LOL 

[Moparal]

The crank is drilled for a 3 or 4 speed. You need to make sure the nose of that converter goes into the hub with ease and not sticking,When the engine is rev'ed up. the converter is pulled up to the block by way of FLEX plate. If the hub is binding, the flex plate cant work right. I have heard some 4 spd cranks werent machined all the way in the center of a hub. I see the grease, but looks like rust to. The hub of your converter should fit inside the crank with no sticking issues.

[shadango]

Gotcha.

I should be able to just grab the converter and stick it up in there and determine that, right?

The rust -- I did clean out the crank hole....though I dodnt clean the paint off the converter hub...the rust was just a thin filmy type.....if that makes sense....maybe I needed it to be much cleaner?

[dutch]

there`s only one spot with paint in there... might have been a big drip on the converter causing it to not centre correctly...? 

[73Chally]

Just an FYI on the 318 rebuild.  You should be able to do a good rebuild for under $2,000.  The key factor would be the time involved, but keep in mind that even if you go the 360 crate route, you will still want to tear it down at least partially to verify clearances, etc.  There are many horror stories about crate engines being junk out of the box.  Your other option would be to rebuild an original 360 block.  You should be able to pick one of them up pretty cheap to start with.

Here's a couple links to a 318 budget build Mopar Muscle did a while back.

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/mopp_0811_318_small_block_budget_build_part2

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/engine/mopp_0901_318_small_block_budget_build_part3

[shadango]

I figured that to hop it up right, I would be lookin gat more than that to have it rebuilt...plus, FINDING the right shop to rebuild it.  I am not expreienced at all in engine rebuilding and not sure this is the time to learn...a lot of other projects on the car I want to learn first...LOL

Figured an out-of-the-box deal might be better.....I am sure there has got to be good reliable crates out there......   

I dont want to just buy a "running" engine and start with anotehr new set iof issues.  If I do it, I will want to start fresh.

But, this is premature.

I am really hoping that the new converter takes care of the vibration.

Hoping the shop fixes the shift issue.

Hoping I can reinstall as relatively easy as it came out.

Lots of hoping LOL.

Preparing myself for disappointment though. Seems like nothing goes easy.

While I was under the car, I noticed that one (left) engine mount may have a crack in the rubber block part....no metal to metal or anything....not even sure its a crack....but they are definately re-used, older mounts.   

What do you guys recomend as far as mounts? And, more importantly, is there a way to swap them out without having to rent or buy a engine hoist?  I would like to swap them out while the tranny is out and the car is way up on jacks as it is now if possible......whats the best way to support the engine to do that? Or is it even possible?

[dodj]

ine mount may have a crack in the rubber block part....no metal to metal or anything....not even sure its a crack....but they are definately re-used, older mounts.   

What do you guys recomend as far as mounts? And, more importantly, is there a way to swap them out without having to rent or buy a engine hoist?  I would like to swap them out while the tranny is out and the car is way up on jacks as it is now if possible......whats the best way to support the engine to do that? Or is it even possible?

I just installed the Magmounts from Mancini racing. They have a bolt through the driver's side mount to prevent complete separation. You can't see exactly how it is constructed because it is encased in rubber. See the Motor mount thread in the engine section. I think replacing them with the tranny installed would be easier. I just placed a bottle jack under the oil pan bolts of the side I was changing the mount on. Then unbolted (k-member bolt) the motor mount and then jacked up the engine. Then engine would then pivot on the other motor mount and the trans mount. Keep an eye on your headers. They will come into contact with the t-bars at some point. Once the engine is up a couple inches, remove the rest of the mount bolts and slide it out through the bottom. Getting wrenches on the bolts will generate several choice words that cannot be posted here. Get the kids out of the garage
If the tranny is not attached, I think the motor could tilt back against the firewall, and then you'd be posting  LOL
Scott