Author Topic: Cooling modifications - what worked for you?  (Read 10494 times)

Offline miketyler

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Cooling modifications - what worked for you?
« on: August 21, 2009 - 10:23:01 AM »
Ok, so this is my guzillionth post about overheating. I thought I had beat the horse dead but there is still room for discussion I think.   :horse:

I gave my car to Greg K to check out for me. Maybe I was overlooking something and needed a second set of eyes. After lots of trial and error and some basic tuning he came to the same conclusion I did: It just runs a little hotter than it should.  :banghead:

He was methodical in his testing and did see some improvement in changing radiators to a stock 26" OEM style radiator. It was the last thing on my list but I am now considering replacing my freshly recored 3row, OEM radiator with a new aluminum unit.

Without changing anything else, how many of you saw cooler temps when going to an aluminum radiator?       
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009 - 02:13:01 PM by miketyler »
72' Cuda restomod
70 Mustang Mach 1
07' Toyota Tacoma Prerunner Dbl cab in Speedway Blue!
01' Honda 1100 Shadow Sabre
96' Seadoo Challenger




Offline ericindc

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Re: Cooling modifications - what worked?
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2009 - 11:30:18 AM »
I HIGHLY recommend installing an aftermarket temp gauge so you can see the actual temp, 220, 230 etc that its getting to.  You may be able to play around with the coolant mixture to still run hot, but not overheat.

 I have a cheap aluminum 3 core model off ebay and it works great with a factory shroud. I can let the 440 engine idle pretty much forever in 90+ degree DC heat.  The only time that it had problems is when i dialed the idle waay way down, The fan simply wasnt pulling enough air through. 

1974 Challenger, 440, auto, 17s
1983 Jeep CJ7, Chevy 350, auto, 32" tires, 2.5" lift

Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: Cooling modifications - what worked?
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2009 - 11:57:38 AM »
Mike,

You have been fighting this "overheating problem" way too long.  Is it really too hot?

I run a 195 thermostat, for my fuel injection, and my computer shows me a running temp of 202-205 at all times. What temps are you running? Do you have an accurate guage like eric suggested?   I read an article that says that a 2-row aluminum radiator with bigger tubes cools better than a 3 row copper radiator due to copper's smaller tube limit.  If you had a radiator flow or fan problem, it would cool when runnign down the highway with forced air.   OR are you just getting hot when stuck in traffic?   Did you try more advance and are you hooked to MANIFOLD VACUUM with a vacuum podded distributor?
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0


Offline miketyler

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Re: Cooling modifications - what worked?
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2009 - 12:46:06 PM »
Yes, Greg removed my flaky SunPro and installed his gauge. All most recent testing was done with it. He checked and confirmed timing and carb tune was dialed in correctly. Am running vacuum advance and is connected correctly.

The car isnt really overheating; no boil overs or puking antifreeze. But temps creep up at an idle when sitting at a light. On my drive home from his shop, sitting in a long line of traffic, temps came up to 230 but didnt go over that. Once moving again, cooled down to 210-215.

I was fishing for responses from owners that had a copper OEM radiator before, and changed to aluminum with no other cooling system mods.     
72' Cuda restomod
70 Mustang Mach 1
07' Toyota Tacoma Prerunner Dbl cab in Speedway Blue!
01' Honda 1100 Shadow Sabre
96' Seadoo Challenger

Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: Cooling modifications - what worked?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2009 - 01:36:10 PM »
Am running vacuum advance and is connected correctly.

Once moving again, cooled down to 210-215.

I was fishing for responses from owners that had a copper OEM radiator before, and changed to aluminum with no other cooling system mods.     

Manifold vacuum not ported vacuum right?  You will generate less heat at idle with manifold vacuum.
Once moving, it is telling me your fan is not pulling enough air or the hot air can't get out from under the hood. did you ever try sitting at idle with the hood popped?

I'll leave you alone and let your radiator question get answed. Sorry to Hi-Jack.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2009 - 01:02:49 AM by ShelbyDogg »
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0


Offline gkring

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Re: Cooling modifications - what worked for you?
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2009 - 09:50:16 PM »
ran few degrees cooler with the hood up and idling, maybe 5 degrees?
Ran 8-10 degrees cooler with my old questioneable 26 inch 3 core radiator off my cuda versus Mikes freshly recored 26 inch 3 core. Saw a max of 215 with my radiator in the 104 texas heat driving with A/C full blast and windows down for maximum worst case scenarios. tried 160, 180 degree thermostats, solid fans and brand new Mopar performance fan and clutch kit. Amazingly running with A/C on or off had no measureable effect. Comparing a brand new Autometer to the factory gauge was suprising. 210 degrees was still in the bottom quarter of the factory gauge, but anything higher quickly goes to half way or a little higher. idling, cruising, and highway speeds had little difference in temp. I really wonder if the new style A/C condensor tight fins is causing issue with airflow even though it passes the paper test.  Mike is also running an external trans cooler and bypassing the radiator all together which should help some. My car is using the trans cooler and has no fan shroud but runs identical temps according to the factory gauge. I will be putting a real gauge on my car or use the infrared gun just to see actual temps.

Again the car is not over heating by any means, but we would like to see 200 driving around versus 210 or 215. You kind of want the thermostat to have control over the motor. I would spend the money to buy a nice aluminum radiator as big as possible. I have heard good and bad about summit brand as well as Be-Cool radiators so I can't really recommend the $200 or the $600 options.

I've driven a triple black 71 cuda as a daily driver for 7 years, a hemi orange challenger, my current white convertible, as well as my 9 second Grand National and nothing got as much attention as a few days of driving around in Mike's plum crazy cuda. I underestimated the power of purple!
Greg
1970 Challenger convertible-in process
1970 Barracuda driver

Offline Aussie Challenger

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Re: Cooling modifications - what worked for you?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2009 - 05:27:22 AM »
 Is the water pump standard or is it an aftermarket, did you check the back space between the impellar and the housing? If the pump is not working properly the very best radiator won't help. Cheaper pumps have questionable clearances and impellars.   :pullinghair:
Dave

Offline miketyler

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Re: Cooling modifications - what worked for you?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2009 - 07:23:51 AM »
Its running the premium FlowKooler aftermarket pump. I compared it to a Milodon, and two other stock pumps and the impeller and anti-cav disc are positioned correctly
72' Cuda restomod
70 Mustang Mach 1
07' Toyota Tacoma Prerunner Dbl cab in Speedway Blue!
01' Honda 1100 Shadow Sabre
96' Seadoo Challenger

Offline BB73Challenger

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Re: Cooling modifications - what worked for you?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2009 - 02:58:50 PM »
When I 1st got my car, I didn't realize how hot it would get till I started taking longertrips and getting caught in traffic.
As a matter of fact, my 1st year at Carlisle, I sat just outside the fairgrounds with the hood up due to the heat  :swear:

I trailered the car there, but what a bummer.
After that I decided no more, but I went through alot.

I finaly figured that after switching to an aluminum rad, running all water, buying those fancy additives, nothing worked.
The car was truly cooler on the freeway, meaning air flow was my big problem.

I was running a mechanical fan with an electric pusher - no help.
I went to a single electric puller with a full shroud - no help.

For anyone keeping score, I've replaced evrything almost twice.

I then started to notice CFM ratings for fans, and the ones I was buying had lower ratings to match the cheaper costs.

In a last ditch effort, I bought a dual electric fan set-up, rated at alot of CFM, but also required 50 amps alone to run. Now I also had to invest in a high amp alternator.

But now, I have NEVER run over 180, and I bought a big enough alt to power any other potential electric items down the road. As a matter of fact, this was my 2nd year driving to Carlisle with out any problems, as well as many local cruises and shows.

I hope this shines a little light, as I was having nonstop issues before as well, and in the end, for some reason, I just could not flow enough air, it had nothing to do with the rad, volume by the pump, what kind of water, collant or additive, what thermostat, high flow, regular or none. I tried "blocking" off the hot air from returning in front of the rad.... I mean I tried all of the regular tricks, but nothing seemed to work.
Jeff from Cleveland, Ohio

Offline miketyler

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Re: Cooling modifications - what worked for you?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2009 - 03:16:18 PM »
Thanks for the response. Your situation sounds very familiar. I will say that most accounts I have read suggest that the very best CFM cooling is obtained via a fixed, belt-driven fan. Interesting to hear you saw no improvement from an aluminum radiator and were able to make an improvement by converting to electric. Most people's experience is the direct opposite.

My issue could very well be airflow, maybe I'm in denial? I hate to have to go back and start playing with a more free-flow condensor when the AC system works so well now.   
72' Cuda restomod
70 Mustang Mach 1
07' Toyota Tacoma Prerunner Dbl cab in Speedway Blue!
01' Honda 1100 Shadow Sabre
96' Seadoo Challenger

Offline ntstlgl1970

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Re: Cooling modifications - what worked for you?
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2009 - 04:02:56 PM »
One other thing I didn't see mentioned, did you try different crank and water pump pulleys to vary the water pump (and fan) speed ratio? I have some extra pulleys I would be willing to donate if it might help...
70 Cuda, 7.0L Gen-III Hemi, Viper T56 w/9310 gearset, 3.91's, Megasquirt MS3x v3.57, Innovate wideband, Firm Feel upper arms, torsion bars, springs and strut rods, QA1 DA shocks. I did everything on this car except the fancy paint stuff and I drive it...and I can't seem to stop messing with it....

Offline cudagirl4406pk

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Re: Cooling modifications - what worked for you?
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2009 - 06:27:55 AM »
I have the becool radiator with duel fan setups and it works well but is pricey at about 1200.00 for the kit.I run a 180 thermostat and i can run around all day and be at 195 in 100 degree weather.


michele
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Offline miketyler

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Re: Cooling modifications - what worked for you?
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2009 - 08:06:19 AM »
Quote
Manifold vacuum not ported vacuum right?  You will generate less heat at idle with manifold vacuum.

No, am pretty sure its connected to the metered vacuum port. I dont know if Greg tried that when he had the car but I havent. I may give it a try but I thought that introduced perfromance issues wunning manifold vacuum to VA.

Quote
did you try different crank and water pump pulleys to vary the water pump (and fan) speed ratio?

Yes, I did look at that. I started with the under-drive March billet pulleys and didnt realize that they actually slowed the waterpump. From my notes, the underdrive ratio (crank:WP) was just under 1:1 with the March setup. The factory ratio for an AC car was 1.2:1. I couldnt go larger with the crank so I had a billet WP pulley custom cut smaller to restore this ratio. Initally I thought I did see some improvement but later proved to be little or no change. The pump is the FlowKooler MiraKool 16 blade pump. I do believe I am running the correct RPM as the factory had designed originally.

Quote
I have the becool radiator with duel fan setups and it works well but is pricey at about 1200.00 for the kit.I run a 180 thermostat and i can run around all day and be at 195 in 100 degree weather.

Yeah, I'm envious you know. You and MEK just kill me with your cool temps.  :swear:   Did your original temps improve with the BeCool setup or were they about the same?   
 
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009 - 08:08:32 AM by miketyler »
72' Cuda restomod
70 Mustang Mach 1
07' Toyota Tacoma Prerunner Dbl cab in Speedway Blue!
01' Honda 1100 Shadow Sabre
96' Seadoo Challenger

Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: Cooling modifications - what worked for you?
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2009 - 10:44:24 AM »
Manifold vacuum increases you advance at idle and low rpm cruising for better gas mileage. Try it and see if you notice a performance issue. You can add high speed advance other ways.

Have you tried a stock A/C water pump without that anti-cav plate on that expensive water pump?  The A/C  pump has 6 vanes and you should never have to run more. (Read the TSB on non-a/c water pumps)
I think a stock pump is $20 and that's all I ever run.

I my stock Grand Cherokee, 210 is right in the middle of the operating range and it probably sits at 215-220 with the a/c on.
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0


Offline miketyler

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Re: Cooling modifications - what worked for you?
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2009 - 11:20:53 AM »
Will try it out. I tried both a 6 blade and 8blade stock pumps before gambling on the Flow Kooler.

I would be good with 210* if it didn't go over that. Seems like most of my overheat issues are idling or stop-and-go traffic in town with the hood closed. Maybe I need some added airflow assistance during those times.     
72' Cuda restomod
70 Mustang Mach 1
07' Toyota Tacoma Prerunner Dbl cab in Speedway Blue!
01' Honda 1100 Shadow Sabre
96' Seadoo Challenger