Author Topic: Alterktion question (Read 9281 times)

fletch · « **on:** November 26, 2009 - 05:18:32 AM »

Hello Guys/Girls,

I have been trying to get in touch with Bill (bill@reillymotorsports.com)from RMS regarding a couple of queries about a front & rear suspension package(Lead time/freight etc).
Have sent a couple of E-Mails over the past week & a half with no reply.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Craig

Devil · « **Reply #1 on:** November 26, 2009 - 11:20:04 PM »

While others will disagree, it not safe enough for anything really then a dedicated autocrosser or drag racer. Anyone with any engineering background will agree. The AlterK doesn't distribute the energy from suspension travel well, it puts too much stress on the K-member mounting bolts, that were NEVER meant to take so much stress.

Go with a XV or Hotchkis setup, much nicer and well designed.

Ryan

cudax34me · « **Reply #2 on:** November 27, 2009 - 01:12:57 AM »

XV vs Hotchkis.......I think the with XV you have to remove some of the welded factory mounts.With the Hotchkis it's a direct bolt on.

This was an episode where they installed XV suspension on the street fighter project.

http://www.powerblocktv.com/site3/index.php/musclecar-episodes?ep_num=MC2009-07&ep_sea=0901

Jay Leno's Garage....talks about the Hotchkis suspension with the man himself.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/at-the-garage/muscle-cars/1970-hotchkis-dodge-challenger-340-ta/

thedodgeboys · « **Reply #3 on:** November 27, 2009 - 03:29:42 AM »

Quote from: fletch on November 26, 2009 - 05:18:32 AM

Hello Guys/Girls,

I have been trying to get in touch with Bill (bill@reillymotorsports.com)from RMS regarding a couple of queries about a front & rear suspension package(Lead time/freight etc).
Have sent a couple of E-Mails over the past week & a half with no reply.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Craig

I don�t know about the email problem I always called him, and get through most of the time.
It took a week to get my front end from the day I ordered it.
I am not aware of any breakage due to overloading the bolts? He has several hundred on the road I would think someone would be whining if that had happened. But I am no expert just a customer.
I do know some of the xv upper a arms have broken.

fletch · « **Reply #4 on:** November 27, 2009 - 04:58:26 AM »

Thanks for your responses.

Ryan, I'm surprised to hear that. I have read nothing but good things about the Alterktion.
Being in Australia, all I can go on is peoples testimonials of the systems & most of them rave about it.

Thanks dodgeboys,will try to call them direct

Craig

IMNCARN82 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 27, 2009 - 10:50:12 AM »

I've put the alterkation through some pretty harsh stuff.Never a problem.Lot's of corners in a row.I mean like over 50 with climbs and hairpins the whole way.I do it all the time at speeds over 80 mph.And have done it over 100 times.(shhh... don't tell anyone)I check the entire vehicle twice a week or more. Wipe it down constantly because I drive it so much.It gets really dirty.I notice EVERYTHING. I've heard you say some bad things about the alterkation before Devil. Where are you getting your info. from? What makes you think it can't take the abuse? Bill has beat the sh!t out of them.The XV is out of my price range.And the RMS has performed flawlessly. I couldn't ask for more. As for Bill... he's a busy dude.Might be a hard time to get a hold of him.Just call and leave a message. I'd go with a power rack unless you got the arm strength for it.The only drawback is the steering radius. The coils on all 4 corners turns the car into more of a real performer.I can't afford to upgrade shocks yet.But soon.QA1's now.FOX maybe next year.They are pricey! Performance wise...A well set up factory set up will be there.But it will never have the curb appeal or the precise steering. The leafs will never outperform the 4 link.

cudazappa · « **Reply #6 on:** November 27, 2009 - 11:15:39 PM »

just my opinion... I don't know of SERIOUS autocrossers running anything other than the original K-frame, or a modified one. The one E-body that has won an actual SCCA national title runs coil overs with a modified original K-frame (and its an original AAR, too.) Every other one that I know of uses a tricked out mopar style OEM suspension. Of course the 200# weight penalty for a completely fabricated K-frame is pretty stiff for C-Prepared.

The Alter-K is a good unit. It does many things well, there's a lot of guys throwing their cars around with this. There's many more taking care of the straight line aspect. Personally, the torsion bar suspension does many things very well, and the only real detriment is when that suspension gets in the way...

Devil · « **Reply #7 on:** November 28, 2009 - 12:47:16 AM »

It isn't surprising, people like Ehrenberg of Mopar Action, Mopar Muscle and almost anyone who builds mopars full time will stay away from the AlterK and Magnumforce, etc.... because they put all the stress of the suspension on the front end, specifically the front K-Member bolts. They were never designed to take that stress. That's what the torsion bars were there for, to distribute the stress longitudinally to the rear cross member area.

Talk it to anyone with any sort of engineering background or knowledge and show them what was there and what the new system does and they will tell you it is not an great design and can fail. I've been in the engineering classes, I've read the books.

Here's a few to read if you want to learn more about the strength and weaknesses in you Mopar's front end or any real front end work, take a look.

http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/mopchas8thed.html

http://www.amazon.com/Mopar-Chassis-Secrets-Modifications-Chrysler/dp/B000NPAKXO/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259387983&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Suspensions-Complete-Building-Street-Autocross/dp/B001BIXK34/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259387789&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.com/Car-Suspension-Handling-Donald-Bastow/dp/0768008727/ref=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259387887&sr=1-12

http://www.themotorbookstore.com/9781557885111.html

http://www.themotorbookstore.com/chassis-suspension.html

You can use it for a daily driver or such if you SIGNIFICANTLY strengthen the front end.

gkring · « **Reply #8 on:** November 28, 2009 - 02:23:47 AM »

Quote from: thedodgeboys on November 27, 2009 - 03:29:42 AM

I do know some of the xv upper a arms have broken.

We know who one of them was, but who are the others? I am sure there are others since they felt the need to redesign their upper arms, I just haven't heard of any. I have never heard anything bad about the alterkation other than the naysayers saying what a bad design it may be. Mother Mopar never designed the cars to have 600+ horsepower and to carry the tires past the 60 foot mark, but that doesn't stop us from doing it.

IMNCARN82 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 28, 2009 - 02:47:33 AM »

I'm looking for an RMS failure. Factory K bolts or whatever. Not books on how to.I know the factory suspension is good.I never doubted it.So what are you saying? I'm going to snap a K bolt? Fold the front frame? Tear the car in half? Doesn't the factory t bar set up simply twist the t bar? I didn't think it held any load front to back. Where did you get your information? I'm just trying to understand your point.Do you not like custom front ends? Do you think the factory set up is better than the RMS stuff? Do you feel people are making a mistake when they put any RMS stuff in their car? Thanx for your opinions and feedback. Robert.

thedodgeboys · « **Reply #10 on:** November 28, 2009 - 03:59:59 AM »

Sorry Greg I have read of one other can�t place it right now but you made my point. And I do agree the xv stuff is probably the best one on the market and I wish it was in my budget I would have went with it.

I also agree the front end needs some extra bracing and support like the xv guys built for their kits. I am sure it places more load on the front end then the stock t-bar does or at least as much, but it must be able to handle it. Thank goodness they over engineered them bad boys so we could abuse them.

I am NO engineer or expert however.

The stock stuff was ahead of its time 40 years ago and still performs today with or without mods.

It just depends on what you want out of your car. (And what you can afford to spend)

Scott

cudazappa · « **Reply #11 on:** November 28, 2009 - 08:49:25 AM »

Quote from: Devil on November 28, 2009 - 12:47:16 AM

It isn't surprising, people like Ehrenberg of Mopar Action, Mopar Muscle and almost anyone who builds mopars full time will stay away from the AlterK and Magnumforce, etc.... because they put all the stress of the suspension on the front end, specifically the front K-Member bolts. They were never designed to take that stress. That's what the torsion bars were there for, to distribute the stress longitudinally to the rear cross member area.

Talk it to anyone with any sort of engineering background or knowledge and show them what was there and what the new system does and they will tell you it is not an great design and can fail. I've been in the engineering classes, I've read the books.

You can use it for a daily driver or such if you SIGNIFICANTLY strengthen the front end.

My main criticism is the fact that the RMS is too flexible for use as a true handling unit. As for the K-frame bolts, have you ever looked at a 73+ mopar suspension? That's exactly what Ma did. All the suspension is contained in the K (aside from the T-bars, but they are isolated at the other end, too!) The reason why the handling guys use the k-frame is because it adds stiffness through the bolts, just like a bolt on subframe connectors. Not optimal, but it does the job. But also by keeping it bolted in, you won't end up with stress fractures (worst case scenario). Oh, and I happen to be currently in college for engineering, and my GPA says I'm doing better than ok... But I will look up some of those books you mentioned.

abodyjoe · « **Reply #12 on:** November 28, 2009 - 10:39:12 AM »

Quote from: Devil on November 26, 2009 - 11:20:04 PM

While others will disagree, it not safe enough for anything really then a dedicated autocrosser or drag racer. Anyone with any engineering background will agree. The AlterK doesn't distribute the energy from suspension travel well, it puts too much stress on the K-member mounting bolts, that were NEVER meant to take so much stress.

Go with a XV or Hotchkis setup, much nicer and well designed.

Ryan

so go with an XV kit huh? sure looks to mount the same way as an alter-k that you argure is garbage. only difference is where the shocks mount. XV you have to cut out your original shock mounts out and replace it with their stuff. the alter-k has its shouck mounts attached to itself.

500Stroker · « **Reply #13 on:** November 28, 2009 - 10:42:27 AM »

Quote from: Devil on November 28, 2009 - 12:47:16 AM

I've been in the engineering classes, I've read the books.

So you've been in a couple engineering classes and you are now an expect. I noticed you did not say have a degree in engineering. If what you say about RMS is true I better stay far away from the RMS equipped Dart I cruise with all year long for the last 4 years. It must just be matter of time before it fails while we are on the twisties or in triple digits on the turnpike.

abodyjoe · « **Reply #14 on:** November 28, 2009 - 10:49:12 AM »

Quote

It isn't surprising, people like Ehrenberg of Mopar Action, Mopar Muscle and almost anyone who builds mopars full time will stay away from the AlterK

ummm sorry but that is wrong also. the only one on that little list of yours that speaks bad about the alter-k is ebooger. infact mopar muscle actually did an article where they installed an alter-k in a b-body. not sure if they have the car running or not yet. they were supposed to have an update on it when it was running and driving. i was also standing right there when randy came to the RMS tent at carlisle and talked to bill at great lengths about how nice of an install it was and how he can't wait till he gets the car running to see how well it handles.

the facts are that there are cars out there with 60,000 hard ass street/track miles on them running the alter-k and they have had no issues at all. there is a reason when the alter-k comes up in any website conversion that other then yourself(devil) and the occasional visit from ebooger no one has any bad things to say about it. and most of the guys that praise them are the guys running them in their car.

now magnumforce is an entire different story. i wouldn't put one of those in my worst enimies car..lol way too many horror stries of bad welds,bad geometry and horrible fit.

my opinion. go with an alter-k. you will not regret it. one of the best mods i ever did to my car. it drives like a modern car and i love it. i agree go with the power rack its awesome. i originally had the manual and to tell ya the truth it wasn't bad driving at all. handled great and drove great. but the power rack with its quicker ratio and nice road feel is just awesome and well worth the upgrade when buying it...

Author Topic: Alterktion question (Read 9281 times)

fletch

Alterktion question

Devil

Re: Alterktion question

cudax34me

Re: Alterktion question

thedodgeboys

Re: Alterktion question

fletch

Re: Alterktion question

IMNCARN82

Re: Alterktion question

cudazappa

Re: Alterktion question

Devil

Re: Alterktion question

gkring

Re: Alterktion question

IMNCARN82

Re: Alterktion question

thedodgeboys

Re: Alterktion question

cudazappa

Re: Alterktion question

abodyjoe

Re: Alterktion question

500Stroker

Re: Alterktion question

abodyjoe

Re: Alterktion question