Author Topic: Best way to beef up my front suspension?  (Read 1775 times)

Offline challenged72

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Best way to beef up my front suspension?
« on: December 04, 2009 - 03:06:42 PM »
Ok so I havent checked my codes or anything, but Im pretty sure my car came with a slant 6 judging by other 72s with all drum brakes

when I got it with the 440 in it, the suspension seemed to sag inwards towards the engine. The tires were fine on the outsides but on the insides the wires were showing

Im already going for all new bushings, what else should I do while Im there?

Thanks  :cheers:




Offline FJ5_440

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Re: Best way to beef up my front suspension?
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2009 - 03:23:34 PM »
Larger torsion bars and a larger sway bar will do wonders for your ride and handling.  Decent shocks make a big difference too, but the really good shocks are serious $.  You may want to get a set of offset upper control arm bushings so you can dial in a more modern alignment. :2cents:
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Offline 4 speed fish

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Re: Best way to beef up my front suspension?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2009 - 04:55:33 PM »
I have the .96 torsion bars and 1 inch swaybar,and all new bushings.The car sits and drives great with a 440 in it.

Offline HP2

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Re: Best way to beef up my front suspension?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2009 - 06:05:01 PM »
How do you plan on driving it?

Minimum is all new bushings and alignment. How much more depends on what you want to do with it when its back together.

Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: Best way to beef up my front suspension?
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2009 - 01:58:14 AM »
Your tires are worn out because the 440 lowered your front end, resulting in a poor alignment. New bushings and an alignment would cure this, but...

The bottom line is this- Your 440 weighs 670 pounds, the /6 that was in there was 525 pounds. That's 145 extra pounds, and that's before you consider the added weight of the big block transmission (727 vs 904) and rear end (8.75 vs 7.25 or 8.25). Based on the data I've seen, your 440 car is probably at least 200 pounds heavier than a slant 6 car, if not more. That's an extra 200 pounds you need to stop and steer! Not to mention the extra horsepower you need to be able to control. In 1972 a 225 /6 was rated at an underwhelming 110 hp, I'm guessing your 440 is doing a bit better than that! :grinyes:

I would consider the minimum upgrades to be new torsion bars (at least .96", 1" would be better), new rear leaf springs (those were a lower rate for the smaller engines as well), new bushings, ball joints and an alignment. If you're still running the /6 drum brakes, I'd strongly consider upgrading those as well to at least stock sized disks, you're going to want to be able to stop that extra power too.

For reference, stock /6 torsion bars are .86" in diameter and had a spring rate of about 90 pounds. Stock 440 bars were .92, and had a spring rate of about 115 pounds, and a lot of 440 cars had the HD .96" bars with 135 lbs of spring rate. In my opinion, even the .96" bars still result in an undersprung ride, although they're fine for most applications. I run 1.12" torsion bars in my 318 powered Challenger (same engine weight as a /6), they have a spring rate of 270 lbs, or 3 times the rate those /6 bars have, and while they're definitely not for everyone I still wouldn't say that my car has a harsh ride, and I drive it daily.

Changing a /6 car to a 440 car is a lot of work, even from the factory the torsion bars were bigger, the rear springs were stiffer, the brakes were bigger/better, the transmission was heavier, the rear end was bigger, etc, etc, and that's just the big ticket items.  And factory stock 440 cars still have a lot of room for improvement in the suspension/handling department.

Personally, I wouldn't want to drive it with any of the /6 running gear still on it. There's a reason the factory didn't sell them that way, and it wasn't because Ma Mopar just "felt like" spending all that extra money on upgraded running gear out of the goodness of her heart.    :grinno: 

Offline 73EStroker

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Re: Best way to beef up my front suspension?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2009 - 02:36:40 PM »
It may not be possible for you but ..... I aluminzed my engine as much as possible. Heads, water pump and housing, intake, headers, alum radiator. What this did was allowed me to use 0.92 torsion bars. I used Poly bushings and Edelbrock shocks. So with stiffer TBs you can end up bouncing across a rough corner as the suspension will bounce the weight of the car upward at the bumps and the wheel cannot travel down quick enough as it hits the next bump and does the same. I am talking rough Canadian roads here. My suspension handles rough corners very well with the softer TB and those fantastic Edelbrock shocks. Handles about as good as I need it to.
Barry (Salmon Arm)

Offline cudazappa

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Re: Best way to beef up my front suspension?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2009 - 08:31:17 PM »
It may not be possible for you but ..... I aluminzed my engine as much as possible. Heads, water pump and housing, intake, headers, alum radiator. What this did was allowed me to use 0.92 torsion bars. I used Poly bushings and Edelbrock shocks. So with stiffer TBs you can end up bouncing across a rough corner as the suspension will bounce the weight of the car upward at the bumps and the wheel cannot travel down quick enough as it hits the next bump and does the same. I am talking rough Canadian roads here. My suspension handles rough corners very well with the softer TB and those fantastic Edelbrock shocks. Handles about as good as I need it to.

Bouncing across rough roads is a combination of too much dampening on the compression side of the shock in correlation with the spring (torsion bar).  That's why KYBs are bad choices for stiff bars (stiff shock + stiff bars = trips to dentist to replace fillings shaken out).  Obviously your roads are pretty rough so you found your solution.

for the original poster I agree with HP2 and 72bluNblu.  First off, the question is, what is your intended use of the car?  For a street driver the .96" bars are really good, but what you plan on doing means you might want to go softer (drag car) or heavier (corner carver)
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Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: Best way to beef up my front suspension?
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2009 - 01:59:43 AM »
So with stiffer TBs you can end up bouncing across a rough corner as the suspension will bounce the weight of the car upward at the bumps and the wheel cannot travel down quick enough as it hits the next bump and does the same.
Bouncing across rough roads is a combination of too much dampening on the compression side of the shock in correlation with the spring (torsion bar).  That's why KYBs are bad choices for stiff bars (stiff shock + stiff bars = trips to dentist to replace fillings shaken out)

This is not entirely accurate. The stiffer the bar the faster they tend to travel if they are deflected, since they will exert more force to return the wheel to neutral. They also tend to deflect less, which results in a rougher ride, since the entire chassis moves instead of the spring. Now of course as a spring they will actually push the wheel past neutral on the return and continue to oscillate, which is why shocks are so important to dampen the spring action.

What you want is for your spring to be fairly close to "critically dampened", which means that the spring/shock combination deflects once and returns almost exactly to neutral with no oscillation. Over-dampened leads to a really stiff ride and even more limited wheel travel, under-dampened means too much oscillation and your car bouncing up and down long after the pothole has passed. The stiffer the spring is the faster the dampening of the shock has to be, so its not just the stiffness of the shock, but how fast that dampening takes place. As the springs get stiffer, the wheel moves faster, and the valving of the shock has to be matched so the shocks react in time. The KYB's problem isn't just having too much dampening, the valving is critical, and on cheaper store bought shocks its more likely that the valving isn't up to par, or matched well to your particular set up. Which is why really good shocks are adjustable in compression speed and dampening, and really expensive.

The most important thing with any choice in suspension is to match the entire system. This takes everything into account-springs, shocks, sway bars, bushings, and tires. Tires are a huge factor. Modern tires provide MUCH more traction, which keeps the car from skidding/hopping, which in turn allows a stiffer spring. Since the tires will stay stuck to the road they transfer more load to the springs, so the springs need to be stiffer and the shock's valving faster.

If you plan on running stock size tires with more "period correct" harder tire compounds, stick with softer bars and shocks, balance them with larger sway bars to control body roll in the corners, and call it good. The softer bars and shocks will give a smoother ride and the sway bars will provide a higher effective spring rate in the corners. This also applies to rough roads. The softer bars allow more wheel travel, so the wheel stays in contact with the road better (the whole point of suspension). Which is why dirt bikes have soft springs with loads of travel, the wheel stays on the ground more than if the springs were stiffer, reducing that "bouncing". Stiffer bars reduce the travel, so the car bounces and skips across the rough road since the suspension won't deflect enough to take up the bumps.

If you want to run wide modern tires and do some corner carving, you can get away with much larger torsion bars, stiffer shocks with faster valving and possibly smaller sway bars. The tires will stick, transfer a ton more energy to the suspension, and the larger bars and better shocks will keep them planted. But as mentioned, the larger bars will reduce travel, so smoother roads are needed if you want to avoid skipping right off the road when you hit something bigger than your suspension can absorb with its more limited travel.

It all really comes down to matching the suspension to what you do with the car, which is the bottom line. For the best results, you need to consider the type of driving you do and your driving ability, the roads you drive, and how you want to set up your car.

This is all just a lot of technical crap though and probably WAAAAAYYYY deeper than anyone wanted to get (I'm an engineer, sue me, I over-analyze). Which is why there's a lot of merit to looking at what "most folks" do. And with a big block car set up for "normalish" driving for a musclecar, a set of .92 to 1" torsion bars, mid range shocks, and stock-ish sized torsion bars with slightly larger and better tires than stock is a pretty good choice for "most" folks. I lean to larger bars, but I like to drive hard in the corners too and don't mind oversteering a little, so that's my preference.

Offline shadango

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Re: Best way to beef up my front suspension?
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2009 - 05:25:37 AM »
Ok so I havent checked my codes or anything, but Im pretty sure my car came with a slant 6 judging by other 72s with all drum brakes


My 72 came with a 318 originally and had drums all around..... :dunno:
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009 - 05:29:48 AM by shadango »

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Best way to beef up my front suspension?
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2009 - 11:28:56 AM »
my 383 4spd Chall has drums all round as well

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Offline challenged72

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Re: Best way to beef up my front suspension?
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2009 - 11:38:27 PM »
its for street use, thanks for the great info. Im going to be upgrading it all then, i want to do it right the first time

Offline Topcat

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Re: Best way to beef up my front suspension?
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2009 - 12:47:40 AM »









This is all just a lot of technical crap though and probably WAAAAAYYYY deeper than anyone wanted to get (I'm an engineer, sue me, I over-analyze). Which is why there's a lot of merit to looking at what "most folks" do.

OK Bryan you're getting sued for a ride next time you're in the southbay on a Saturday.  :stirpot:

In all honesty, great info you said.  :2thumbs:
Mike, Fremont, CA.