WOW Toyota

[Supercuda]

I hate tobeata dead horse, but Quagmire is off the mark. There are standards associated with every part of a car, and the ETC and ABS brake systems are included. Heavy trucks are NOT cars,and are not driven in the same manner. Just like ABS, truck-proven ETC should not have been applied to cars. The first automotive (vs HD truck) ABS systems had LOTS of issues, and their use was not even allowed at first, due to the nature and scope of the problems in their application in cars. The fact that serious acceleration problems have not been associated with ETC systems in other makes is not proof of their reliability or safety. It merely proves that the issues affecting Toyota are not the issues affecting other makes. This is not to say that there are not issues, just that the issues are not exactly the same as Toyota's. Attempting to compare aircraft fly-by-wire systems to automotive ones is an egregious example of comparing apples to oranges. There are NO redundant backup systems on cars, and NO training of the drivers to deal with emergencies, not even at the professional level of police and fire equipment drivers. NOBODY has been prepared for this technology in our motor vehicles, and we are finding out the hard way. As for slanted reporting, I think that is also somewhat unfair. I heard plenty about the Liberty recall, and who can forget the 2007 Ford diesel fiasco? Any 2007 6.4L diesel owners out there? I thought not. Removing mechanical connection between the driver and his controlled components that affect vehicle safety (engine, brakes, trans, steering) is a mistake, plain and smple. The fact that all cars now produced have ETC  shouldn't make you think of Toyota so much as the bad guy, as much as it should make you wonder when the rest of the national fleet will have catastrophic failure. As for hydraulic brakes being similar in concept to ETC, this is also off the mark. Brakes were forced to go dual-circuit in 1965, due to the lack of a backup system. The parking brake will indeed slow a vehicle from even 90 MPH, but will require a significant amount of time and space to do it. For this reason, Ford lost a lawsuit in the 1950s, and the term "emergency brake" was removed from the official automotive lexicon. For the entire history of the automobile, safety and sense have always been afterthoughts, and we have to suffer because of it. Don't like where tech nology is going? Don't buy a new car. It's the only alternative, and will soon be removed as an option, if the Feds get their way. They don't want us in old cars, and would rather that we had no control at all over the new ones. Watch "Minority Report" for a good example of where the world is supposed to go, if the "plan" is followed.

[brads70]

So now every Prius from 2004 to 2009 is being recalled, but they said they have not officially issued the recall because they don't know how to fix it. 

Not In Canada???   I'm guessing it's because we have different litigation laws here so they figure they can get away with it here! Or the bean counters have it figured that they woill make more money not doing anything about it here. I'f I'm correct....their true colors stink!

[71chally416]

What bothers me is when they were asked if the problem has been solved they couldn't give a "Yes" answer. It's 100% THIER problem, and if they continue to sell new cars that are unsafe and anyone dies because of it, I hope they get sued into bancruptcy. 

[quagmire]

Yes, there are some standards, but nothing even like the relatively loose OBD and EPA legislation.  I work with this stuff everyday and I can tell you that they pretty much leave the software and failsafe portions up to the OEM.  It is not anything like the aircraft or heavy trucking industries where you are told exactly how you can do something.  It is a night and day comparison.  There is no hard set of rules for this stuff. 

Like I said before, this technology is used in tons of other applications and has been for a very long time with no issues like Toyota is having.  There is nothing special about the automobile that prevents there safe use unless a poor design is put into place.  And that is what is occurring here.  A car that you can't shift out of gear or turn off without holding the button down for several seconds?  THAT is a horrible design.  There need to be rules preventing crap like that ever making it past the drawing board.  I've personally fixed more than a few stuck mechanical throttle issues, and no ETC setups.  Properly executed, there is nothing wrong with these, and that's the key problem.  There are no real standards right now.

ABS and stability controls are standard in virtually everything now, and we do not have vehicles crashing and killing people constantly due to system issues.  They had problems initially because they were poorly designed and executed garbage.  The initial systems had no standardization and lots of corner cutting/money saving.  Just like this current ETC fiasco.

The point is, this technology is not going any where.  And to only drive Model T's around to due a fear of no mechanical linkage and the MAN is crazy.  Modern cars are far safer than previous designs, most people realize that.  What we need is a way to keep OEM's from cutting corners and making absolutely horrible common sense designs.  Most people with half a brain could see that the shifter and shutdown procedures are asinine.  How a panel of very well paid engineers didnt is beyond me.

[NoMope Greg]

Yes, there are some standards, but nothing even like the relatively loose OBD and EPA legislation.  I work with this stuff everyday and I can tell you that they pretty much leave the software and failsafe portions up to the OEM.  It is not anything like the aircraft or heavy trucking industries where you are told exactly how you can do something.  It is a night and day comparison.  There is no hard set of rules for this stuff. 

Like I said before, this technology is used in tons of other applications and has been for a very long time with no issues like Toyota is having.  There is nothing special about the automobile that prevents there safe use unless a poor design is put into place.  And that is what is occurring here.  A car that you can't shift out of gear or turn off without holding the button down for several seconds?  THAT is a horrible design.  There need to be rules preventing crap like that ever making it past the drawing board.  I've personally fixed more than a few stuck mechanical throttle issues, and no ETC setups.  Properly executed, there is nothing wrong with these, and that's the key problem.  There are no real standards right now.

ABS and stability controls are standard in virtually everything now, and we do not have vehicles crashing and killing people constantly due to system issues.  They had problems initially because they were poorly designed and executed garbage.  The initial systems had no standardization and lots of corner cutting/money saving.  Just like this current ETC fiasco.

The point is, this technology is not going any where.  And to only drive Model T's around to due a fear of no mechanical linkage and the MAN is crazy.  Modern cars are far safer than previous designs, most people realize that.  What we need is a way to keep OEM's from cutting corners and making absolutely horrible common sense designs.  Most people with half a brain could see that the shifter and shutdown procedures are asinine.  How a panel of very well paid engineers didnt is beyond me.

   I thought the keyless ignition design was unsafe from the first time I read about it.  I sure hope my CHP colleague and his family didn't die because no one told him to push a button for three seconds to shut the car off

[Supercuda]

I am not suggesting a Luddite revolution, just a return to common sense in automotive equipment. This requires a consideration of the environment in which a system must work, as well as the addition of new technology. ETC is one technology that has no place on an automobile. The required working environment is too harsh fo reliable operation of the technology. I have seen lots of problems with ETC, and it will not get much better with time. This is a problematic technology in this case, and inappopriate in a vehicle that has to do what we require of our cars. It is true that the legislation that you refer to is "loose" in its openness to interpretation, but that is the fault of people that write laws in a vacuum. That the manufacturers interpret the rules in their favor (read: cheap technology), is the fault of greedy people. You will notice that the common theme here is people. This factor is NEVER taken into account when these systems are engineered, and it is the fault of those engineers that this is not done. Again, it comes back to people. Toyota's specific issues with ETC technology are the result of their overconfidence in their superior design and engineering, and it has come around to bite them. That there are unsolvable issues with this technology should be reason enough not to use it. Until ABS could be reasonably expected not to fail as soon as it was asked to work, it was not included in automobile design. It is still a very imperfect technology, causing as many problems on the road as it was designed to eliminate. Its performance as a safety feature has been a failure, not decreasing loss of property or life since its acceptance throughout the industry. This is why we should carefully analyze a technology before including it in the design of vehicles which are so loosely controlled in their engineering, manufacture, and maintenance. Forgettin to include the human element in their calculations has bitten every vehicle manufacturer, and it will continue to do so as long as we are enamored of these cool gadgets,and do not consider the ultimate cost of these geegaws. I will continue to stand where I do, as my field experience with ETC has given me zero confidence in the reliability or necessity of this technology on our cars. I am tired of asking a computer if it's ok to accelerate, decelerate, or turn on the stupid a/c. How about we just start teaching people how to drive, again? It used to work.