Author Topic: WOW Toyota  (Read 10190 times)

Offline Topcat

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Re: WOW Toyota
« Reply #90 on: March 09, 2010 - 11:19:55 AM »
I don't think it's fair to punish the other auto makers who haven't had a problem.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100302/ap_on_bi_ge/toyota_recall
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Offline ChallengerHK

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Re: WOW Toyota
« Reply #91 on: March 09, 2010 - 01:11:32 PM »
The increasing complexity of our cars is due in part to Federal mandates, in part to engineers trying to keep their jobs, and in part to consumers wanting (demanding) cooler gadgets in their vehicles.

And, in most cases, unions add to this. I can't count the number of times that engineers have told me "We've got a great, easy solution to X, but the unions won't let us implement it."


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Offline 73Chally

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Re: WOW Toyota
« Reply #92 on: March 09, 2010 - 02:09:42 PM »
A number of the foreign manufacturers already have the brake over-ride system in place, so there should not be much of a price increase involved.  In fact, Toyota is one of the few that does not.  Toyota is just getting raked over the coals.  They now have everyone from line workers to executives coming out and saying that they have voiced concern and memos since 2000 about their apparent lack of concern over safety issues.  Japanese auto reporters have always said that Toyota is by far the most secretive manufacturer when it comes to trying to get any details about their R&D, testing, etc.

Offline 73Chally

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Re: WOW Toyota
« Reply #93 on: March 09, 2010 - 06:15:11 PM »
Wow! Just watching the news and they have a story about a Prius accelerating out of control in California, I believe.  They were able to get it stopped, fortunately.  The kicker is that the next commercial brake was one of Toyota's new commercials about how current owners feel safe with their cars.

Offline brads70

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Re: WOW Toyota
« Reply #94 on: March 09, 2010 - 06:21:13 PM »
Wow! Just watching the news and they have a story about a Prius accelerating out of control in California, I believe.  They were able to get it stopped, fortunately.  The kicker is that the next commercial brake was one of Toyota's new commercials about how current owners feel safe with their cars.
Ya I just saw it on the news, had the cops saying how they were telling him ( via, loudspeaker) to apply the parking break as well as the regular brakes? 
 :clueless: ummmm, how about shifting it to neutral, or as a last resort shut it off? :screwy:
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Offline farmboy70

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Re: WOW Toyota
« Reply #95 on: March 09, 2010 - 06:53:15 PM »
Ya I just saw it on the news, had the cops saying how they were telling him ( via, loudspeaker) to apply the parking break as well as the regular brakes? 
 :clueless: ummmm, how about shifting it to neutral, or as a last resort shut it off? :screwy:
Apparently that won't help, the trans shifts electronically also and won't disengage.

Offline bb71challenger

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Re: WOW Toyota
« Reply #96 on: March 09, 2010 - 08:01:38 PM »
Apparently that won't help, the trans shifts electronically also and won't disengage.

If that is the case it explains why the people who are dying in these crashes. I guess the best thing to do is to floor the brakes and set the emergency as much as possible and hang on.  That is a super duper death trap when you cant disengage the trans, cant turn off the car and brakes frying. I will never look at Toyota the same again and will never buy one or any car with a drive by wire throttle.
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Offline 73Chally

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Re: WOW Toyota
« Reply #97 on: March 09, 2010 - 08:10:56 PM »
This is why the brake over-ride is being pushed.  It is supposed to disengage the throttle when pressure is applied to the brakes.  Of course, it's another computer operated system, and they have already shown how well those work.  They need to come up with some sort of pull handle with a physical connection to the throttle/fuel pump or something along those lines.

Offline quagmire

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Re: WOW Toyota
« Reply #98 on: March 09, 2010 - 08:11:02 PM »
I don't think that the culprit here is the evil drive by wire throttle controls.  For decades virtually all diesels in cars, light trucks, and semi's have been drive by wire.  There is no mechanical linkage whatsoever.  They also have numerous fail safes to prevent issues.  They have multiple sensors in the pedal to prevent one from causing an event.  If one or more read different than the others, the vehicle enters a forced idle.  Same thing happens if the pedals are applied together.  It is almost impossible to have an issue unless the pedal gets stuck, which will do the same thing on a linkage vehicle. 

Most large airplanes and fighters operate the same way, and they very rarely have issues.  If there is an issue, they fall out of the sky.  The same analogy could be made for hydraulic brakes since there is no fail safe and a parking brake will not do anything at speed.  But hydraulics have been safely implemented for decades.  The technology for this is all proven and tested, but we do not have any mandated rules or standards for there use in cars.

The real problem is the execution and quality control.  Airplanes and big trucks have required strict standards and very specific designs for a very long time.  Everybody has to do it the same way and to the same standard.  Autos are different.  There is no Federally mandated standard and no set of must have rules and fail safes in place.  Couple that with the lowest bidder mindset for product design and production and you can have a very serious problem.  As much as a I dislike regulations, I think there need to be some for these systems as they will NOT be going away.  Make everybody do it the same way and to the same degree, and borrow the principles used in other industries that have been around for decades and that are far more dependent on these systems.

Offline dodj

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Re: WOW Toyota
« Reply #99 on: March 09, 2010 - 08:56:50 PM »
Wow! Just watching the news and they have a story about a Prius accelerating out of control in California, I believe.  They were able to get it stopped, fortunately.  The kicker is that the next commercial brake was one of Toyota's new commercials about how current owners feel safe with their cars.
The CBC news here reported that the owner had brought it in for recall service but was turned away saying his Prius was not affected.
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Offline bb71challenger

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Re: WOW Toyota
« Reply #100 on: March 09, 2010 - 09:22:27 PM »
I was just reading an article on a kenne bell blower install on an SRT8 and read where the 6.1 is drive by wire throttle.  Didnt know that and am left wondering just how many Chrysler vehicles have this throttle setup. I am not comfortable at all with a car that has a throttle controlled by the ECU.
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Offline quagmire

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Re: WOW Toyota
« Reply #101 on: March 09, 2010 - 09:35:01 PM »
The majority of cars for the past decade utilize drive by wire throttles.  It isn't a new thing, Toyota just messed up royally and it's biting them.

Offline JS27N0B

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Re: WOW Toyota
« Reply #102 on: March 09, 2010 - 10:35:15 PM »
I was just reading an article on a kenne bell blower install on an SRT8 and read where the 6.1 is drive by wire throttle.  Didnt know that and am left wondering just how many Chrysler vehicles have this throttle setup. I am not comfortable at all with a car that has a throttle controlled by the ECU.

Most of the new Chrysler products are electronic throttle and have failsafes in place with dual sensors within the pedal sensor. If one doesn't agree with the other you launch a fault and have no throttle pedal with an at most RPM of about 1500 to limp home.  Can't say I've seen any issues here and they will even go into default if they detect ice buildup on the throttle blade.
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Offline ViperMan

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Re: WOW Toyota
« Reply #103 on: March 10, 2010 - 09:05:32 AM »
Nice thread going here.  Personally I'm not a Toyota fan, but I still think the US media has blown this thing way out of proportion.  Yes accidents are taking place, and even a few deaths.  But Chrysler recalled nearly ever Jeep Liberty ever BUILT because people's WHEELS were falling of due to faulty ball joints.  Did you hear that on the news?  Nope, me neither.  But I did have a few Jeeps towed in on flat beds that had to be DRAGGED off because the ball joint has snapped.

Of course, it's convenient - slam a Japanese automaker and see domestic sales climb.  What's REALLY funny to me is how a 9% drop in sales for Toyota equated to something like a 300% INCREASE in sales for Chevy, Chrysler AND Ford!!!  Really shows you how many imports our citizens have been buying.

It will certainly take several years for Toyota to return to #1.  But I'm sure they will - eventually.
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Offline 73Chally

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Re: WOW Toyota
« Reply #104 on: March 10, 2010 - 09:23:23 AM »
So now every Prius from 2004 to 2009 is being recalled, but they said they have not officially issued the recall because they don't know how to fix it.  At least a snapped ball joint can be fixed.  They estimate now that 6 million owners will sue under Class Action for lost resale value, with a minimum hit of $3 Billion.  That is just in restitution, and does not take into account lost sales in the future, plus the $100+Million in lawsuits from the families of the deceased, plus the $2 Billion they already lost from the previous recalls and lost sales.  I said a while back that this is only scratching the surface.  I'm sure they will eventually come through all this, but could take a $10Billion dollar hit when all is said and done.