Author Topic: 440ci Magnum Build  (Read 35870 times)

Offline Carlwalski

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Re: 440ci Magnum Build
« Reply #90 on: February 18, 2010 - 04:02:47 PM »


what was the rating in 1970 for a 440... 9.5? you said it numbers engine right...

personally Id get a cam and run it........ then go from there as far as buying a carb and a better converter... just my  :2cents:


That makes sense, along the same lines as Moper is saying, I guess in a sense, tackle one problem at a time. Yup, that is correct. It's the #'s matching block. A 69/70 RB 440 HP engine.




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Offline Carlwalski

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Re: 440ci Magnum Build
« Reply #91 on: February 18, 2010 - 04:05:52 PM »
yeah, unfortunately there is very little correlation between pressure readings and static compression ratios. So aside from seeing things are in good shape or not, you cant tell much. It's also hard when things were done by places for you and you were'nt deeply involved. So you really don't know (unless the paperwork states it) what things ended up at.
Carl, I don't mean to confuse. Sometimes we are mislead by published numbers and flow tests designed to sound good and catch your attention. It can be difficult to wade through things. Which was why I was trying to educate so you can make your own choices. You were dead on saying the cam is an issue. My angle is if that is the major issue as you describe, why spend a lot of money to revamp the whole top end? It's like racing a car only in first gear and then rebuilding the engine because it wasn't fast enough. You don't know how good it could be. I think the Thunder series is a great carb. Certainly better than the AFB Performer line. But it will probably need tuning. As will every carb you buy. So why not leave it and see how good it can be? It's a perfect match for your expected rpm and usage. Are you leaving some peak power on the table? Probably. But you give a little there to get low end and response because you're not spending 24/7 at WOT at 5K+(we hope  :naughty: ). The trick is get the car equipped and matched bumper to bumper to what you do with it for a resonable(to you) price.


Thanks Moper, great information there and helpful real world tips. I guess you are correct. I will keep the carb for now, I think 800cfm is a good place and it's basically brand new and served well thus far. What about the OEM intake? Will that hinder performance or should I upgrade that to something else? Am I correct in thinking (basic terms) that the lower the intake, the lower the power range? Like a high rise will give you plenty of power in the midrange to high rpm limit?

I guess what I really need to know is what cams will work for my 440 0.30, bolt in type set up, likenot needing to get new rockers to make it work or heavy machine work, etc. Once I know I can then print off the specs and go over them with the engine builder to discuss what he thinks will work with me. What I'm scared of I guess is buying a camshaft kit then finding I have to do such and such to the rockers, get new pistons or something to make it fit. I still like my power down low, nice and responsive grunt. I'm not into cars that have to rev high to make power, on the street, this isn't as good, IMO.


CAMSHAFT OPTIONS THAT WORK WITH A STOCK 440 (links below):


Mopar 528 Kit

Compcam XE274H Kit
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Offline Carlwalski

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Re: 440ci Magnum Build
« Reply #92 on: February 18, 2010 - 05:33:10 PM »


What advantage would going to the XE268 have? http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-CL21-223-4/

XE268 = Intake dur @ .50 = 224, Exhaust = 230, lift = .477 and the rpm range is 1,600-5,800rpm.
XE274 = Intake dur @ .50 = 230, Exhaust = 236, lift = .488 and the rpm range is 1,800-6,000rpm.

I'm guessing the 268 has more torque down low and a more subtle idle?


Doing searches at Moparts, there was someone with a standard 383 but 0.30 over who asked about the same cams, the consensus was his compression was too stock/low to run the 274. They said he'd lose bottom end and being a street car it'd be less fun to drive. They all seemed to think the 268 was the better choice. Thoughts?

http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=QuestionAnswer&Number=5464572&Searchpage=1&Main=5446109&Words=xe274h&topic=&Search=true#Post5464572


Going by the Compcam cam spec sheet for the 268, it says it comes in a 3bolt design as well.
I'm no pro but I'm thinking this cam might be the way to go. I don't want to get too much cam for my stock engine.

http://www.compcams.com/Cam_Specs/CamDetails.aspx?csid=707&sb=2





« Last Edit: February 18, 2010 - 05:59:35 PM by Carlwalski »
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Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: 440ci Magnum Build
« Reply #93 on: February 18, 2010 - 07:12:16 PM »
less duration & overlap will help build cylinder pressure at low RPM , I still bet the lunati with similar duration kicks the Comps ass

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Offline Carlwalski

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Re: 440ci Magnum Build
« Reply #94 on: February 18, 2010 - 07:27:20 PM »

I still bet the lunati with similar duration kicks the Comps ass


In terms of what exactly? :dunno: A couple of extra hp? Quality? Reliability and longevity?


I couldn't find the Lunati cam you were speaking of or a kit. I'll keep searching.........



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Offline Strawdawg

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Re: 440ci Magnum Build
« Reply #95 on: February 18, 2010 - 08:00:26 PM »
Drivability, power at low rpm, improved mileage, vacuum for power brakes, etc.

For street cars, it is important to have a broad power band in my opinion, rather than one that comes on strong at the upper end and is a dog on the low end. 

I consider Moper's comp cam at the top end of the range, unless you have more cranking compression than I suspect you do.
As I think I stated prior, I prefer the Lunati hydraulic which is slightly tamer which CP mentioned. 

There are a number of articles available online detailing the relation of cranking cylinder pressure to cam duration. 

Cutting to the chase, here is a link from Hughes providing suggested cranking pressures for their cams which seems to fall into line with everything I have studied.  http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/basiccamguidelinesforhydraulicflattappets.php

Remember that your current readings...if you used a compression gauge....will be lower than what you will see when you go to a longer duration cam.  This is due to the distance (degs) after Bottom dead center that the intake valve closes.  The greater this number, the higher in the cylinder the piston will be when the valve is closed and the less air that will then be in the cylinder to be compressed.

Offline moper

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Re: 440ci Magnum Build
« Reply #96 on: February 19, 2010 - 08:52:37 AM »
In short, the 268 in a 383 is a great cam for a typical 9:1 engine that has to idle and have torque off idle. It's a short stroke engine and as such needs all the cylinder pressure it can get. If you had a 383 I would have said the XE268, again, because the Lunatis all need double springs which you need to cut the heads for. You have 10% more stroke than the 383. Just like the stroker engine packages it's the stoke that makes a cam milder or more radical. The 268 would run fine for you and idle a little better, but I think it's leaving some power on the table with that choice and there isnt a down side to going for that extra power.
If you recall i figured the Comp bashing would appear...lol. My thoughts: Brand doesnt mean jack **** on camshafts with the exception of their quality control. In that regard, Comp is very high, as are Bullet, Lunati, Crane(I miss Crane...sigh...), Engle(at least old Engle... not sure since they were sold), and many brands excepting MP products. The lobe design matters most, and breaking it down further there are more things I believe should be  taken into account than power when I look at rates of lift: stability, longevity in the engine package that's being designed, cost of the required support parts... So using those guidelines it's a question of what fits your application easiest, is not subject to a high risk of wiping, and will make the power you want. Lunatis need a lot of spring for that fast lift rate, so changing to one on an mild built engine requires removing the heads and machine labor. It should also be noted that most manufacturers including Comp have MUCH faster rates of lift than the "shelf" part numbers available for those that care to research them.

Straw, also remember that "what you see" is a function of all the parts currently in the engine. So if the current cam is retarded, or advanced, or the timing set worn a little, or the rings/valve job has some wear or are too new to have fully seated... the reading will be affected one way or the other. One needs to always consider the measured pressure is a result. Not a prediction. As you note, the only thing that SHOULD affect the cylinder pressure indicated on a gage is the closing of the intake valve on a given engine. However there are always many other factors (including starter circuit and battery strength) that DO affect it.

Offline Strawdawg

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Re: 440ci Magnum Build
« Reply #97 on: February 19, 2010 - 10:24:26 AM »

Straw, also remember that "what you see" is a function of all the parts currently in the engine. So if the current cam is retarded, or advanced, or the timing set worn a little, or the rings/valve job has some wear or are too new to have fully seated... the reading will be affected one way or the other. One needs to always consider the measured pressure is a result. Not a prediction. As you note, the only thing that SHOULD affect the cylinder pressure indicated on a gage is the closing of the intake valve on a given engine. However there are always many other factors (including starter circuit and battery strength) that DO affect it.

I agree 100%.  And that is inherent in my point :)  What he has is what he is working with--unless he wants to do a rebuild.  As far as I think I read, he has a freshened up engine with a very mild cam in it at the moment.  Obviously, I don't know if the current cam was degreed in, or just stabbed in as so often is the case.

If I understand corectly, he wants to change cams and the rest of the factors that you mention are basically constants in this case unless he is going to spend more money on other things. 

Someone else mentioned the supposed factory compression of the engine....My guess is that the actual compression ratio was probably at least half a point less than advertised because all the heads I have seen had a lot more volume than the specs listed.  That is pretty typical among all brands, imo.  Perhaps his machineshop decked the heads and block and got things close to spec..I don't know.

I do know that it is really not about compression ratio, but, it is all about low speed cylinder pressure, and that if he currently has relatively low cranking pressure now, it will get a lot worse if he sticks that Mopar cam in it. 

I learn slowly :D,  In January of 1965, I bought a new Belvedere II 383 and in February of 1965, I stuck a 310 Isky magnum in it....sure sounded good.  I think it was about 1990 when I finally began to resist the urge to overcam engines-particulary street cars.

My latest project is a Chally with a 440 that some prior owner stuck that particular Mopar cam in that the OP likes.  Sure sounds good...but a stock piston'd '70 block with 452 heads does not make much cranking compression even tho the the heads are decked pretty good.

I figure that the cam you suggested and a lot more compression will make it run a lot better than it currently does.  I might be wrong, but, I have finally come to the conclusion that math does work and the cam companies know what they are talking about.

I am pretty much like you, I am not sure there is much magic between cam companies as long as they grind the lobes as they are designed to be ground.  I don't think they are perfect, or we would not have to degree them in, however so I always check 'em.

I have a comp roller in one of my Buicks and it works well.  Not so high on their roller lifters, but, maybe they will get them where they all are good in one box one of these days.

So, while I agree with you in essence, I still think he is going to need a lot more cranking pressure than he probably has....as he has no info, a compression test is about as good as we can do unless he has it taken apart and everything measured.  It is not that hard to extrapolate if the cam is the only change.  We don't need engine analyzer software to do that like we would if he was changing rod lengths, etc.

But, hey, it would not be fun if there was one answer, and only one answer for every problem...that would be boring as heck. :D

Offline Carlwalski

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Re: 440ci Magnum Build
« Reply #98 on: February 19, 2010 - 01:36:01 PM »


Thank you guys, Sledgehammer nailed it, all I am wanting to do is spice it up and replace the tired cam I have now and being the numbers matching block don't want to go wild (nor see it necessary), especially having just had a full rebuild 5,000miles ago. I originally thought stroker kit and while that'd be kick arse, for my goals I don't think I need to go that far, thanks to talking about it with you guys.


I have been trying to search for a 1970 440 HP's stock compression ratio, I can't find it lol. That might help you guys put your heads together and have an "educated" guess at compression. My engine is 0.30 over, stock crank and gears and pistons to suit the new 446ci displacement. Do you think around 8.5-9 sounds about right?

OK, so it looks like the Comp Cam XH274H is the way to go. It looks great rpm wise, is a good price and looking kit. Thanks for the info on the stroke and 383 differences. Does the kit below have everything I need? What else will I need to make this cam/kit work with my stock 440 heads? New rockers?


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-K21-224-4/







Thanks everyone!  :wave:
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Offline Carlwalski

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Re: 440ci Magnum Build
« Reply #99 on: February 19, 2010 - 02:13:57 PM »


Thanks, so are my factory rockers 1.5 or 1.6? I'd like to just leave everything as-is on the heads side if possible (apart from a nice valve job) but camshaft fitment wise, I'd like to basically drop in the cam kit and go. So that kit would just "drop in", yes?


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Offline Carlwalski

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Re: 440ci Magnum Build
« Reply #100 on: February 19, 2010 - 02:35:02 PM »


Thanks. Holy crap, there are quite a few thicknesses and materials........

http://www.summitracing.com/search/Make/DODGE/Engine-Size/7-2L-440/Part-Type/Valve-Cover-Gaskets/?keyword=440+gaskets

Which one would I want to order?



Also, with that camshaft, will I have enough vacuum running power brakes and A/C?
I know it's probably hard to tell without much info (which I'm still tracking down).



1970 Dodge Challenger R/T
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540ci Aluminium Hemi, F.A.S.T EFI
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Offline Carlwalski

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Re: 440ci Magnum Build
« Reply #101 on: February 19, 2010 - 02:52:52 PM »


Aha, I got yah, the full kit. Thanks!


Like the one on the bottom right corner? http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/entegase.html
All I'll need is that kit and some valve cover gaskets, that should cover everything, correct?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010 - 02:57:41 PM by Carlwalski »
1970 Dodge Challenger R/T
White, License Plate, 0A-5599
540ci Aluminium Hemi, F.A.S.T EFI
TF-727 Gear Vendor OD, Dana 60

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: 440ci Magnum Build
« Reply #102 on: February 19, 2010 - 04:38:28 PM »
so how did we go from a 512 stroker build up & I am only going to do this once to a simple cam swap & not even pull the heads ??? :smilielol:

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Offline Carlwalski

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Re: 440ci Magnum Build
« Reply #103 on: February 19, 2010 - 05:35:16 PM »
so how did we go from a 512 stroker build up & I am only going to do this once to a simple cam swap & not even pull the heads ??? :smilielol:

We've been talking about camshafts and non-stroker kits since page 3. ;) As I said a few posts earlier, talking about this stuff and going through it with you guys as to WHY my engine is like this led me to this decision. Not sure about anyone else but I'm not one to just throw money down and do a build based off a 5 minute discussion. Like most guys, I'm not here to pull every bit of hp from my engine, I just want more grunt in the right areas, thankfully a few people spotted the cam and my intentions and noted that a full engine build wasn't the way to go. Doing it once makes no difference, if it's a full build or cam change, if it's the best way to go then it's only going to be once.




Thanks Jason, if the heads have to get pulled or not I'm OK with. Nice to know though. :2thumbs:
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Offline The Cuda Guy

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Re: 440ci Magnum Build
« Reply #104 on: February 20, 2010 - 12:56:30 AM »
Carl,

This is one of the cams I was looking at before:

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1579&gid=287


Here are a set of head gaskets that will raise your compression up:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DCC-5155237


Don
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