440ci Magnum Build

[bb71challenger]

I agree with Neil on the cam manufacturer, I like Engle but they sold out so it looks like Lunati will be my cam make for now. And no the cam bolt does not hold the timing chain sprocket on but it sure as hell holds the sprocket on the dowel! If the bolt loosens your whole engine is likely dead and at the very least you will have dinged pistons and most if not all the valves will be bent. For another hundred bucks you can get a 3 bolt timing chain and rest easier. You can afford it and you are taking the timing chain off anyway. Sell the one bolt timing chain to someone who has not had the misfortune of a bolt coming loose. I think I need a kickback for suggesting you change the cam instead of rebuild the engine too       

[Carlwalski]

I agree with Neil on the cam manufacturer, I like Engle but they sold out so it looks like Lunati will be my cam make for now. And no the cam bolt does not hold the timing chain sprocket on but it sure as hell holds the sprocket on the dowel! If the bolt loosens your whole engine is likely dead and at the very least you will have dinged pistons and most if not all the valves will be bent. For another hundred bucks you can get a 3 bolt timing chain and rest easier. You can afford it and you are taking the timing chain off anyway. Sell the one bolt timing chain to someone who has not had the misfortune of a bolt coming loose. I think I need a kickback for suggesting you change the cam instead of rebuild the engine too   

Thanks for suggesting the camshaft change only, not an entire engine build.


Thanks Don, I was looking at that Comp Cam kit and I swear it said "Available as 3 bolt by changing the first 21 in the part number to 23". But, it's not there so must have been a different cam. I guess if I'm going to do a cam change it won't hurt to do a 3 bolt main while I'm at it. I like peace of mind. That Lunati cam looks good spec wise and is 3 bolt. They sell a "kit" but it's not as complete as the Comp Cam kit.

Do I need EVERYTHING in the "Matching Components" list at the bottom of the auction (see photo)? I would have thought perhaps everything except the push rods? I really want a full "drop in" kit bar even slight machine work of course but parts wise, I want everything. I just can't afford and don't want to get the parts down here and find I need something else, it's not a simple 1-2 day wait where I live lol.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/LUNATI-BB-CHRYSLER-268%2F276-VOODOO-CAM-&-LIFTER-%2360303LK_W0QQitemZ360233807343QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20100210?IMSfp=TL100210159017r38750

[Carlwalski]

so for you i would just pick up the lunati don suggested and these related parts...

cam / lifters kit
lunati timing set
lunati spring kit
head gaskets ( if your cam installer wants to degree cam with heads off)
cam change gasket kit
pushrods - those are stock replacements so thats up to you i guess... would hurt i guess 

Thanks Jason, that's what I needed to hear. Is it worth paying extra for that Beehive stuff? I've never heard of that brand and I feel there is no need to. I'd prefer to stick with the same manufacture if possible.

[Carlwalski]

Roger that! I think I have everything I need now, thanks again! 

[Strawdawg]

blah..blah.....................how that cam knows it is a chevy is beyond me 

Mopars use a larger base on the lifter than do other cars.  That means the lifter will work on a more aggressive lobe ramp which will allow for more area under the lift curve which in turn allows the engine to make more power with less duration.  This then means the engine should have better throttle response and drivability.....in theory and in practice.  Worked for Nascar.

Whether Comp uses a differently designed ramp on their mopar offerings, or uses a standard lobe design for all their products, I don't know.  I will leave that for Neil and Moper to argue.  We do know that Lunati and Hughes do.

blah...blah....I think the factory head gasket was .020 right??? if it was you wont raise compression any !

So you know the machine shop used a shim gasket when it did the work instead of cleaning up the heads and or block and replacing the factory gaskets with composites as many do so the intake will fit without more machining?  If it did, using the shim will either get the volumes closer to what they originally were, or increase it a bit which would be nice.  Hard to ever assume anything on rebuilt engine as machine shops often do it their way instead of the factory way.

blah..............

Carl, the cam suggested by Cuda Guy is one of the ones that Neil liked. 

You also asked about the factory listed compression ratio.  My '70 manual shows the non six pack to be 9.7-1.  Normally, that is on the optimistic side as the combustion chambers are often a bit larger from the factory.  It may be closer to that now after the rebuild if the shop used shim gaskets when it put it back together.  Or it may be lower, depending how much the machine shop took off the block and heads when they cleaned it up if they used a composite gasket closer to .040". 

Again, I like the Lunati suggested by Neil and Cuda Guy, and I would not object to the Comp suggested by Moper altho I would say no bigger than that.

[bb71challenger]

Butterscotch Bandits, heh, I like it!  Butterscotch be tasty!   

[Strawdawg]

how a cam knows what it is (chevy/mopar/ford) is simply retared!  the .528 cam is still a good choice as others have stated as well 

oldschool runs a comp and I had a comp in the challenger so I guess to some its junk!

carl good luck with it man.... make sure you tell straw what you cylinder pressures are 

As I stated, the larger foot on a mopar lifter allows for a more aggressive ramp design which in turn allows for more area under the lift curve.  This is fact.  I can only assume that you did not read the sentence where I stated that I did not know if Comp modified their lobe designs to take advantage of this larger foot, or not.  The engine does not know anything.  It just does not perform as well as it may have the potential for.

As far as cylinder pressure goes, it has all to do with how the engine performs.  It is a fairly simple concept and is widely understood.  It is one of the factors predicted when one uses good engine analysis software.

If the pressure is low at low engine speed, then the throttle response is poor and the vacuum is low.  This makes for doggy performance at low speed and potentially weak brakes if one has vacuum brakes. 

Band-Aiders then crank the idle speed way up and go to a looser converter to not only try to reduce the load on the engine in hopes of getting more vacuum, but, also trying to get the engine up into a higher rpm band more quickly so it will accelerate thus giving up some of the original power band.

It is always better to design the complete powertrain for synergy to produce the intended use whether a street car or a race car. 

Your last post is completely correct and repeats what Moper posted.  In this case, we are dealing with a known quantity, and the only thing that will change is the cam unless he rebuilds it.  If he does a simple compression check, he would know if he is going to need a rebuild.  He has a very short cam in it and it should have very good cranking compression if the battery is fresh. 

If it does not have a decent pressure on the gauge, then he needs to figure out why.

[Strawdawg]

straw its all good man  me and CP talked alot about the .904 profile at carlilse.... the comp thing is just an old joke that never goes away (everyone knows CP hates comp)..... 

I hope carl finds what he is after as im sure the few ones suggested to him will work fine... being overseas im sure he just wants to make sure he gets the right stuff the first time... 

yeah, it makes it hard when you can't cheaply pick up the phone and call Comp, or whomever for advice.  Long ago, I worked in Australia and got involved with some circle track cars.  I was amazed how hard it was to get parts and such.  Today, they have a lot of good stuff down there and some really neat cars.

I think I mentioned that I have the 528 in my current Challenger project in a prior post.

[The Cuda Guy]

ah the butterscotch bandits strike again!  don WTF were you gonna do with that cam! 

I think the factory head gasket was .020 right??? if it was you wont raise compression any !

Ok...  Im not going to do anything with that cam.  All I said was I looked at it in the past.  Seemed to fit the RPM range Carl was looking for so I passed the link since we are about 12 pages deep here just to confuse the situation that much more.

I have no idea what the gasket size was from the factory.  I do know that the common size for rebuiding from FELPRO, Mr. Gasket seemed to be .040 (Carl's engine is a fairly new rebuild) therefore the ones i recommended would raise the compression.

Yes it was an assumption based on infromation/facts that I had i filled in the gaps based on the pattern established for aftermarket gaskets sizes after filling in those gaps I made what I beleive to be a sound recommendation.

Don
  

[Carlwalski]

I hope carl finds what he is after as im sure the few ones suggested to him will work fine... being overseas im sure he just wants to make sure he gets the right stuff the first time... 

BINGO! It takes 10 days minimum to ship an order like this, that's all going to plan, unless I pay $300 USD to get it here in 3 days. I HAVE to make sure I have everything needed the first time round, otherwise I'll have to wait 10-15 more days. That Lunati is more than likely the way I'll go, I like that it's 3 bolt which you guys have said while not needed, won't hurt since I'm doing all this.


Also, I better ask before I pay, will the Lunati with it's (Int/Exh): 226/234 and (Int/Exh): .494/.513 make a NOTICEABLE difference from my current (Int/Exh): 214/214 and (Int/Exh): .438/.438. That's where the Mopar .528 looks a little gruntier with 241/241 and 528 lift. Or, will that be too much cam for my mild setup?

[Chryco Psycho]

you cannot compare a solid & hyd cam directly , the lash on the solid cam reduces the effective duration so a 241 duration on a solid grind when measured with the lash will be more like a 232* duration
 duration will make the biggest difference in the way the engine runs , to me lift is just free . You will have extra cost with any solid cam as you will need different pushrods & adjustable rockers to run it adding apporx $800 to the cost of the cam swap & I always have to have custom pushrods ordered after measuring for them with the engine assembled , I order them from Smiths Bros & they run $10 each + shipping but they send them out the next business day

[Chryco Psycho]

that makes no sense , what he really needs is 512 CI 

[Carlwalski]

you cannot compare a solid & hyd cam directly , the lash on the solid cam reduces the effective duration so a 241 duration on a solid grind when measured with the lash will be more like a 232* duration
 duration will make the biggest difference in the way the engine runs , to me lift is just free . You will have extra cost with any solid cam as you will need different pushrods & adjustable rockers to run it adding apporx $800 to the cost of the cam swap & I always have to have custom pushrods ordered after measuring for them with the engine assembled , I order them from Smiths Bros & they run $10 each + shipping but they send them out the next business day

So with the Lunati Hydraulic cam, I won't need new adjustable rockers and new sized pushrods? l'll get new pushrods while I am it, based on what Lunati says works with their cam but I'm guessing they are stock size. 1.5 rockers are used with the Lunati cam.


512 would be cool, just not needed this for car, cam= culprit. Later this year I'll have 540 cubes of FHO to please my right foot. I just want my 440 to perform like I know it should without going wild and doing an unnecessary build.


Thanks!

[Carlwalski]

Will my Edelbrock Thunder Series AVS 800cfm Square bore bolt directly to a Holley Street Dominator? I like the sounds of it as it's very similar to the RPM intake but will give more torque down low and is much lower so hood clearance with a Challenger Rallye hood isn't an issue. Or am I better off just sticking with my OEM intake until the cam is done? Ie: do one thing at a time so I can tell what made what difference.

[Chryco Psycho]

I use the Street Dom Mostly & yes it is lower & yes the carb will bolt on