Questions on a budget minded suspension setup

[FJ5_440]

I have a couple of questions about how to finish out my suspension plans.  With the ancient design and a heavy 440 six pack in the nose of this thing, I know it will never keep up with a modern sports car arond the corners, but I would like it to handle better than my wifes Minivan.
This is my suspension set up so far.  Some of it is already bought and installed, some is waiting to be bolted on, and some is waiting for me to have more toy money squirreled away.  Feel free to give me any thoughts.

Magnum Force Frame Connectors (welded)
11/16 tie rod ends with seamless sleeves
Firm Feel Stage 3 Steering Box
Firm Feel Fast ratio Pitman and idler arm
CAP Adjustable Strut Rods
1" Torsion Bars
Espo Rear Leaf Springs
1" lowering Rear Spring Hangers
Stock 3/4" Rear Sway Bar with Poly bushings and end links
1 1/8" Front Sway bar with Poly links and Bushings
11.75 Front Brake Discs
Ceramic front Brake pads and 10" rear shoes
15x7 Rallyes with 245/60/15 radials - Front
15x8 Rallyes with 275/60/15 radials - Rears

My main questions are:

1.  Upper Tubular Control Arms - Are the Hotchkis worth the extra money or would I be just as well off with another less expensive supplier??

2.  Shocks - Should I go for the Bilsteins at $425, Konis at $540, or Edelbrocks at $300?

3.  Anything I missed?

[72hemi]

For the control arms I would go with SPC Performance. Jeg's has them listed at $230 a piece and they are complete ready to install. What is really nice about the SPC units is they are double adjustable, meaning you can make the camber and caster adjustments to them without removing them from the car (like you have to do with most aftermarket adjustable upper control arms).


http://www.spcperformance.com/PROD_DIR/PERF_MUSC_DIR/SPCPerf_MUSCLEDODGE.html

[autoxcuda]

If you are looking at a budget, there is a lot of parts that will not give you any seat of the pants performance gains when looking at your whole combo. Use the stock upper control arm and strut rods and put $800 or so in your pocket! I wouldn't bother with the 11/16" tubular end link either.

The rest is very good bang for the buck. Almost the exact same setup as a Hotchkis blue test 440 Challenger they got .87G on the skid pad from. Same 1" torsion bars and same tires even. Now that car did have all the bells and whistles of their TVS system. Which are most all the parts you listed below. But I think you can get nearly the exact same place without the strut rods and uppers.

I have a couple of questions about how to finish out my suspension plans.  With the ancient design and a heavy 440 six pack in the nose of this thing, I know it will never keep up with a modern sports car arond the corners, but I would like it to handle better than my wifes Minivan.
This is my suspension set up so far.  Some of it is already bought and installed, some is waiting to be bolted on, and some is waiting for me to have more toy money squirreled away.  Feel free to give me any thoughts.

Magnum Force Frame Connectors (welded)
11/16 tie rod ends with seamless sleeves
Firm Feel Stage 3 Steering Box
Firm Feel Fast ratio Pitman and idler arm
CAP Adjustable Strut Rods
1" Torsion Bars
Espo Rear Leaf Springs
1" lowering Rear Spring Hangers
Stock 3/4" Rear Sway Bar with Poly bushings and end links
1 1/8" Front Sway bar with Poly links and Bushings
11.75 Front Brake Discs
Ceramic front Brake pads and 10" rear shoes Some aftermarket pads don't work well when cold. Do your homework with that particular pad compound.
15x7 Rallyes with 245/60/15 radials - Front
15x8 Rallyes with 275/60/15 radials - Rears

My main questions are:

1.  Upper Tubular Control Arms - Are the Hotchkis worth the extra money or would I be just as well off with another less expensive supplier??
Just run your stock ones with Moog 7103 offset bushings. You are not going to be generating the cornering load with BFG tires with need tubular stuff.

2.  Shocks - Should I go for the Bilsteins at $425, Konis at $540, or Edelbrocks at $300?

Bilstein RCD's form Firm Feel or Hotchkis

3.  Anything I missed?

[FJ5_440]

If you are looking at a budget, there is a lot of parts that will not give you any seat of the pants performance gains when looking at your whole combo. Use the stock upper control arm and strut rods and put $800 or so in your pocket! I wouldn't bother with the 11/16" tubular end link either.

The rest is very good bang for the buck. Almost the exact same setup as a Hotchkis blue test 440 Challenger they got .87G on the skid pad from. Same 1" torsion bars and same tires even. Now that car did have all the bells and whistles of their TVS system. Which are most all the parts you listed below. But I think you can get nearly the exact same place without the strut rods and uppers.

Thanks for the info. 
Do you think the Bilsteins are better shocks than the Konis?
If I upgrade to 17 inch wheels and tires will the stock uppers still be OK?

[BIGSHCLUNK]

Shane, keep us updated on this stuff. NIKKIs steering box is coming out for a build as soon as it warms up a bit, so I'm considering an upgrade or 2 myself shock and a-arm wise. Curious as how yours turns out! 

[autoxcuda]

Thanks for the info. 
Do you think the Bilsteins are better shocks than the Konis?
If I upgrade to 17 inch wheels and tires will the stock uppers still be OK?

17 rims will be fine with stock uppers. You mentioned budget. So I see that as only spending stuff for what's absolutely bare minimum necessary that you can feel. So it's just a lower bang for your buck upgrade in comparision to where else money can be spent. Like spending money on good wide 17" rubber first. Nobody has bent a stock upper when racing or autocrossing their car.

After you do all that other stuff, then grippy 245 or wider Z rated 40-50 series tires, then tubular A-arms. Maybe some higher rate T-bars then too. I'd try the lower profile tires first and see if the ride is still acceptable to your personal perferences (everyone is different).

Bilsteins or Konis. The Bilsteins are being used in the Hotchkis kit and being sold by Firm Feel a little less money too.

Konis are nice for the adjusabilty. But you have to unbolt the lower portion and jack up the car to compress them fully and adjust them. If that seems like something you would actually do, I'd think you should get an adjustable rear sway bar too. That will really help you dial in the understeer/oversteer of the car.

[72bluNblu]

It looks like you've got a good plan there! 

I would agree with autoX though, the UCA's and strut rods are extra's. The stock strut rods work just fine, there really isn't much to be gained by going to aftermarket ones. Aftermarket rods look better and are lighter, but the function gained is pretty minimal.

Adjustable UCA's are nice, especially if you're lowering the car any. And if you want a real corner carver, dialing in some negative camber is a great thing. But, that being said, they are an expensive part of the list and for a good handling driver they're extra. A new set of ball joints with offset bushings will get you enough adjustability for a street car, and unless your stock UCA's are damaged they're plenty strong.

I would go ahead with the rest of the plan. The 11/16" tie rods aren't necessary, but since they're stock pieces for the C-bodies they really aren't any more expensive than the stockers. Also, I see you listed ESPO springs and lowering hangers. Now, I had to get new hangers when I changed my springs because of some rust, but if your hangers are in good shape you can tell ESPO where you want your ride height to be, they offer their springs in several ride heights and save a few bucks on the hangers.

Plus, you can always go back and add the UCA's and strut rods later. That will give you time to save for them, and still have a great handling car in the meantime.

[dodj]

Torque boxes if you don't have them already from the factory?

[FJ5_440]

autoxcuda  and 72bluNblu
- With your suggestions, I will probably stick with the stock upper arms  and strut rods at this point since I doubt that this car will ever see a track.  Maybe I will go with a seamless tie rod link setup since the stock type tie rods are new.  I think I found a place to get the Koni shocks for about $440 a set and will either go with those or get the Bilsteins from Hotchkis.

dodj -
I should probably add the torque boxes, but I hate to mess up the underside, and I am probably the worst welder ever.  How tough are they to weld in without taking the car apart again?

BIGSHCLUNK - 
It will probably be a month or two, but I will post up results once I get the car out of storage and start bolting on new stuff.

Thanks everyone for the input.  I know that these modifications will make the car better handling and nicer to drive, but I am not sure what kinds of improvements to expect.
The improvement was amazing when i upgraded my tired old 69 GTO with Global West tubular control arms and lowering springs, a fast ratio steering box, good shocks, and sway bars thicker than a broomhandle.  It wasn't a good comparison since everything on that car was already worn out when I started and it handled like a school bus.

When the Cuda was reassembled, it had all new suspension parts on it but they are stock replacement stuff.  I am hoping that I can get a good comparison of what a fresh stock setup is like compared to my handful of modifications.
Maybe I can get my hands on a Gtech or something like that and do some before and after testing to see how much it really paid off.

Winter is long and cold around here, so it is a good time to order parts and dream.  I have to be cool about picking up pieces bit by bit because my wife doesn't really understand why I am going to yank out a pair of torsion bars with a couple thousand miles on them and put in newer ones.  It is also tough to explain what makes a set of Koni shocks worth 450 bucks more than the shiny blue ones that are on there now.
 

[HP2]

Don't forget a good alignment when your done; -.5* camber, as much positive caster as possible up to 5*, and 1/16 toe in.

If you have good, new 9/16 tie rod ends, you could always try the solid sleeves. IMO, the 9/16 ends are good for up to 5g beyond the cars weight, so anything bigger is just adding weight. But, the stock split sleeves could deflect more than the ends themselves.

Can't really add anymore than what has already been pointed out.

[dodj]

I (so far) have only put in the rear torque boxes. You don't really have to take much apart to weld them in, just make sure the carpet and interior plastic is away from the welding area. The pita is welding overhead. 

[autoxcuda]

...

Adjustable UCA's are nice, especially if you're lowering the car any. And if you want a real corner carver, dialing in some negative camber is a great thing. But, that being said, they are an expensive part of the list and for a good handling driver they're extra. A new set of ball joints with offset bushings will get you enough adjustability for a street car, and unless your stock UCA's are damaged they're plenty strong.

...

I have stock upper control arms and stock strut rods and my car is very lowered (my K-member is 5.5" off the ground).

My alignment:

1.0 degree negative camber (very aggressive. I'd just do 0.5 neg like HP2 rec'd)
4.5 degree postive caster
1/16" toe in

I cut/shave the rear poly strut bushings and sleeve 3/16" to get them back to stock thickness. Read how to do that here. You don't have to used a lathe to do that either. Just a hacksaw and/or a grinder.

http://www.heritech.org/cuda/bushings.html The photo comparion is my picture. I've ran shaved poly strut bushings for about 10 years now.

[autoxcuda]

Thanks everyone for the input.  I know that these modifications will make the car better handling and nicer to drive, but I am not sure what kinds of improvements to expect.
The improvement was amazing when i upgraded my tired old 69 GTO with Global West tubular control arms and lowering springs, a fast ratio steering box, good shocks, and sway bars thicker than a broomhandle.  It wasn't a good comparison since everything on that car was already worn out when I started and it handled like a school bus.

It will be quite noticable. Should be very on par with what you did to the GTO.

Do you remember what spring rate you had on the front of the GTO?

[FJ5_440]

It will be quite noticable. Should be very on par with what you did to the GTO.

Do you remember what spring rate you had on the front of the GTO?

I am pretty sure they were 520 lbs springs with a 1.25" front sway bar.

[autoxcuda]

I am pretty sure they were 520 lbs springs with a 1.25" front sway bar.

1.0" T-bars in a E-body should be similar to that. That was a big block 400 and you have big block 440 up front.