Author Topic: Headers???  (Read 3970 times)

Offline mojavered

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Headers???
« on: February 23, 2010 - 03:07:46 PM »
I am going to be purchasing some headers pretty soon.  They are for a high torque, maybe 600+, stroked 440.  I have read some horror stories about headers and starters and getting in the way.....etc...  As it seems that there are fewer problems with the TTI's, I will probably go that route.  How do I know what size header tube to run?  I know that low end torque is lost on larger tubes and vise versa.  I think that I will have to go with the 2 1/8" tubes?  It will run into 3" exhaust.  I want minimal fit problems but the right flow for my engine.  Is there a better recomended header?  It looks like the Dougs are pretty decent too???  Might mention that the car has power steering in case the steering box gets in the way??  It also has Indy EZ heads.  Thanks for the expertise!
Jason




Offline Carlwalski

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Re: Headers???
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010 - 03:57:52 PM »


I've heard that 2" is about as large as you want to go on the street, header wise?
I run tti 1-7/8" to 2-1/2" exhaust but my 440 is basically stock.

Fitment and quality wise they can't be beaten. :cheers:


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Offline Topcat

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Re: Headers???
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010 - 04:37:17 PM »
Some information I gathered:

There are many ideas about header pipe sizing. Usually the primary pipe sizing is related to exhaust valve and port size. Header pipe length is dependent on wave tuning (or lack of it).

Typically, longer pipes tune for lower r.p.m. power and the shorter pipes favor high r.p.m. power. The collector outlet size is determined by primary pipe size and exhaust cam timing.

As the piston approaches top dead center, the spark plug fires igniting a fireball just as the piston rocks over into the power stroke.  The piston transfers the energy of the expanding gases to the crankshaft as the exhaust valve starts to open in the last part of the power stroke. The gas pressure is still high (70 to 90 p.s.i.) causing a rapid escape of the gases (blowdown). A pressure wave is generated as the valve continues to open. Gases can flow at an average speed of over 350 ft/sec, but the pressure wave travels at the speed of sound (and is dependent on gas temperature). Expanding exhaust gases rush into the port and down the primary header pipe. At the end of the pipe, the gases and waves converge at the collector. In the collector, the gases expand quickly as the waves propagate into all of the available orifices including the other primary tubes.  The gases and some of the wave energy flow into the collector outlet and out the tail pipe.

Based on the above visualization, two basic phenomenon are at work in the exhaust system: gas particle movement and pressure wave activity. The absolute pressure differential between the cylinder and the atmosphere determines gas particle speed. As the gases travel down the pipe and expand, the speed decreases. The pressure waves, on the other hand, base their speed on the speed of sound. While the wave speed also decreases as they travel down the pipe due to gas cooling, the speed will increase again as the wave is reflected back up the pipe towards the cylinder.  At all times, the speed of the wave action is much greater than the speed of the gas particles.  Waves behave much differently than gas particles when a junction is encountered in the pipe.  When two or more pipes come together, as in a collector for example, the waves travel into all of the available pipes - backwards as well as forwards. Waves are also reflected back up the original pipe, but with a negative pressure.  The strength of the wave reflection is based on the area change compared to the area of the originating pipe.

This reflecting, negative pulse energy is the basis of wave action tuning. The basic idea is to time the negative wave pulse reflection to coincide with the period of overlap - this low pressure helps to pull in a fresh intake charge as the intake valve is opening and helps to remove the residual exhaust gases before the exhaust valve closes.  Typically this phenomenon is controlled by the length of the primary header pipe.  Due to the 'critical timing' aspect of this tuning technique, there may be parts of the power curve where more harm than good is done. An X pipe designed collector increases scavenging just past the collector area.

Gas speed is a double edged sword as well, too much gas speed indicates that that the system may be too restrictive hurting top end power, while too little gas speed tends to make the power curve excessively 'peaky' hurting low end torque.  Larger diameter tubes allow the gases to expand; this cools the gases, slowing down both the gases and the waves.
Mike, Fremont, CA.


Offline tommyg29

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Re: Headers???
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2010 - 06:21:44 PM »
 :iagree: What he said!
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Offline Changin Gears

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Re: Headers???
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2010 - 08:03:18 PM »
One thing about  these large (2" and greater) tubes is the mismatch at the port,  easily 1/4".  Now it is a step out so it shouldn't hurt flow much, but that much larger than the port sure says it is too large.


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Offline mojavered

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Re: Headers???
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2010 - 12:24:09 PM »
OK, that is a lot of information.  I don't think I got everything out of that as I should as I did not get a solid feeling after reading it.  Is there some kind of formula that I can plug some numbers into to get a better idea of what is recomended? 
I figure there are quite a few members out there that have put headers on their stroker motors and have had good results.  I know that there are some that have had good luck using the tti headers as they have the best fitment from what I have read.  I have read one good article on the Dougs. 
When I first went on to the tti website, the only thing I could get to come up for bb was the 2-1/8" header.  Now I can get the 2", but not the 1-7/8".  Maybe they are working on their site.  My main concern is the larger the header, the more fitment problems I will have.  I personally feel that a 2" header is probably a good choice, but want opinions based on experience, good with the bad. 
Through a computer program, my engine spec'd out at 10:1 cr, 555 hp, 610 ft. lb.
Maybe I missed some good reviews on headers through the search function, so maybe someone has some good links.  I would really just like the help of the experienced mebers out there. Thanks for the help.
Jason

Offline Doomed

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Re: Headers???
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2010 - 03:51:32 PM »
I used to have a set of Hooker comp headers, the fit was not so good. I now run TTI 1 7/8" ceramic coated headers into 2 1/2" exhaust, with no clearance issues at all. I use a powermaster mini starter, and its much easier to install than stock one. My 440 dyno'd at 495 hp and 510 ftp.

Kyle.
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Offline Road_Runner

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Re: Headers???
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2010 - 10:00:36 PM »
I'd be very curious to hear about how accessible the spark plugs are with the various header sizes & vendors.  I've got a set of Hooker 1 3/4" comps on my 383 RR and I've had to come up with several bizarre combinations of swivels & extensions to get the plugs in & out.  Changing plugs is a real pain.  It's interesting that in some of the pictures I've seen of Doug's headers on small blocks the plug access seems to be as good or better than regular manifolds.  That would be awesome if it could be true for B & RB motors, too...

Later, Jim
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Offline Road_Runner

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Re: Headers???
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2010 - 10:21:01 PM »
I had 2" tti's on my challenger and indy ez heads.. plugs were easy to change and nothing hit anywhere :working:

I'm surprised it varies so much by manufacturer.  From what I can tell there is only so much they can do with the tubes to clear everything on the drivers side and keep the tube lengths equal.  Are the TTI's equal length?  That seems to be why the Hookers go in all different directions before ending at the collector...
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Offline Strawdawg

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Re: Headers???
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2010 - 10:45:34 PM »
I'd be very curious to hear about how accessible the spark plugs are with the various header sizes & vendors.  I've got a set of Hooker 1 3/4" comps on my 383 RR and I've had to come up with several bizarre combinations of swivels & extensions to get the plugs in & out.  Changing plugs is a real pain.  It's interesting that in some of the pictures I've seen of Doug's headers on small blocks the plug access seems to be as good or better than regular manifolds.  That would be awesome if it could be true for B & RB motors, too...

Later, Jim


I have found that sometimes a plain old box end from the bottom will work to break the impossible one loose...and then finger tips...cold engine, of course... :)

Offline Topcat

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Re: Headers???
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2010 - 12:03:05 AM »
Here is what an X pipe collector looks like.
Mainly for very high output engines.
Mike, Fremont, CA.


Offline 73EStroker

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Re: Headers???
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2010 - 11:11:31 PM »
Indy EZ heads & TTI 1-7/8" headers. Spark plug removal is a breeze.
Barry (Salmon Arm)

Offline mojavered

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Re: Headers???
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2010 - 01:16:13 PM »
OK, I dumped the cash on some 2" TTI's.  Now I wonder if I would be alright with the stock starter or not.  I have heard it is a tight fit, but if there is no modification, why would I want to change it?  Will it get too hot?  Any experience here?  Thanks!
Jason

Offline Changin Gears

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Re: Headers???
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2010 - 04:50:54 PM »
These mini-van starters last orever with no issues.  I would replace it now, you don't want to after the headers are on.


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Offline 4 speed fish

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Re: Headers???
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2010 - 05:04:20 PM »
I bought headman headers for my 440.The price was cheap.I used a mini starter.I had clearance issue.I rerouted the tubes that did not clear.I marked the tubes where I could cut  them and still be able to weld around the new tube.I used the cardboard tubes from wrapping paper as my templates.Any muffler shop will weld them up for you,then I sent them out to be coated for 200.00.I paid 200.00 for the headers 100.00 for the tube pieces and to be welded.For 500.00 I have perfect fitting headers.