Carb Help Needed - Please!!!

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Offline t1971Chally

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Carb Help Needed - Please!!!
« on: March 08, 2010 - 06:04:43 AM »
Hello everyone,,,

First, let me just set the stage for you!   I AM NO CARB EXPERT AND I NEED HELP!!!   :banghead:  A little background,,,,I just put a Edelbrock 1813 Thunder Series Carb on my Challenger.  The challenger has a 440 - .030" over with a Edelbrock Torker II intake.  I pulled the Holley (model # i forget do not care to remember) due to the primary and secondary bowls basically delaminating/Falling apart on the inside clogging up the carb.  I now have the Edelbrock hooked up with the exception of the vacuum which is where I am TOTALLY LOST!!!  I am trying to figure out how to hook up the vacuum system.  Edelbrock states the left side of the carb (facing it) is for the "Time Vacuum Port" while the right side is for "Manifold Vacuum Port".  So which one should I use?

How do I determine which vacuum to use?
Where are the connections made on the engine?
What are the differences in the two vacuum systems?
I am not even sure if I am asking the right questions? :clueless:

I have the throttle linkage hooked up, the booster line hooked up in the back of the carb, the electric choke set (roughly), the kick down connected, just need to get the vacuum system working.

Please understand, I am asking for detailed explanations as I am a TOTAL rookie when it comes to carb vacuum system.

Please help...if there are any pics you need or additional information please let me know and I will get it for you.

Thanks T1971Chally
Ted
1971 Dodge Challenger 440 Magnum
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Offline Bullitt-

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Re: Carb Help Needed - Please!!!
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2010 - 07:52:01 AM »
There are 3-schools of thought on this so you will get different answers. I'll just say that the factory used the Timed Vacuum, also referred to as Metered Vacuum. Don't be afraid to try both especially if your engine is heavily modified.

Here is a tuning procedure that explains the vacuum advance setup well.
http://tvmoparclub.com/files/tech/Mopar%20Timing.pdf
Wade  73 Rallye 340..'77 Millennium Falcon...13 R/T Classic   Huntsville, AL
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Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Carb Help Needed - Please!!!
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2010 - 11:47:12 AM »
manifold vacuum is highest at idle giving you full advance at idle & is taken from under the throttle plates  , it will retard timing as RPM increases , generally not what you want & will cause overheating
 timed port is the opposite , there is no vacuum at idle & it increases with RPM advancing the timing with RPM , the vacuum is drawn above the throttle plate inside the venturi
 on hioghly modified engines I generally do not use vacuum advance just the mechanical advance int he dist allowing far more initial advance which is what the engine needs with more radical cam designs

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline t1971Chally

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Re: Carb Help Needed - Please!!!
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2010 - 06:19:27 AM »
Bullitt - Thanks for the procedure it really explains the process well.  Seriously I appreciate your help...
Chryco Psycho - As well, thanks for the explainations.

I do have another question.  Based on the explanations by you guys, I am going to assume that my challenger was set up for manifold vacuum.  I say this because the vacuum advance still has the rubber plug on it and the holley carb still has the rubber plug over that particular port.  Also, when the Holley was still on the car, I made the connection between the carb and the vacuum advance and plugged the manifold port.  The car DIED!!!  Obviously I put it back the way it was - vacuum advance plugged off and the port on the carb plugged off. 

AM I CORRECT IN Assuming the car is set up for manifold vacuum? 
If so, outside of following the procedure that Bullitt provided, are there any mechanical changes needed to to convert it from manifold vacuum to timed port vacuum? 
If so, can you tell me what changes I need to make? 
If not, again I will assume that following the procedure will allow me to convert from Manifold to timed port?
Please let me know if I am on the right track or not? 

Thanks for all of your help!!!

T1971Chally
Ted
1971 Dodge Challenger 440 Magnum
:cheers:

Offline Bullitt-

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Re: Carb Help Needed - Please!!!
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2010 - 07:00:03 AM »
Only thing I can see that would effect this is the initial timing, when you connected to manifold vacuum it advanced the timing too much.  Set timing & carburetor mixture for best idle 1st with no vacuum advance connected then follow the article.
Wade  73 Rallye 340..'77 Millennium Falcon...13 R/T Classic   Huntsville, AL
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Offline moper

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Re: Carb Help Needed - Please!!!
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2010 - 11:49:28 AM »
I know I;m coming in late here... But I think you're feeling that "the car was set up for manifold" is probably mistaken. If your engine is basically a 440 with a cam, in most cases it will run better with the timed vacuum port connected to the distributor. Not always... but most of the time by far. Now, CP noted how the timed port works. At idle, if the engine is tuned properly, the throttle plates of the carb are closed just below the passage that conencts to the timed vacuum nipple on the carb base. That means at idle, there is no vacuum present going to the distributor. However, if there are other tuning issues.. not enough initial timing, or poor idle mixture, or too fast of an idle, the throttle plates are opened using the idle speed adjustment an that port gets exposed to vacuum at idle. That can really screw things up. If it were me, I'd take that carb, set the idle speed and mixture with the vacuum ports plugged, then connect the vacuum advance on the dsitributor to the timed vacuum port on the carb. If the idle speed goes up at all when you connect the vacuum line check the timed vacuum port on the carb to see if there is any vacuum (suction) present while the engine is idling. If there is, slow down the idle, add about 4° of timing, reset the mixture screws to smoothest idle, and make sure there is no vacuum at the timed vacuum port after you're done.

Offline t1971Chally

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Re: Carb Help Needed - Please!!!
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2010 - 07:15:19 PM »
Mopar, Bullitt, Chryco Psycho,
I appreciate the "Teach" on setting up the timing....I truly do!!!  I am totally lost here but I have began to absorb your lessons on timing.  Here is why I am saying "I believe" it was set up on manifold vacuum.  The old holley carb that was on the car had the timed port nipple plugged off and the vacuum advance on the distributor was plugged off as well.  Let me say it this way.....if it was not set up on manifold then I am not sure how it was set up as the vacuum advance still has the rubber plug on it. 

I am waiting on a few more parts to come in that I need to finish the change over from Holley to Edelbrock set up (Edelbrock Fuel line with fuel pressure gauge) and then I will give it a try.  I also ordered a new TTi exhaust system (should be here this weekend) this past weekend at the Indy Mopar event in Indianapolis that I plan on installing.  Man, I am excited to get her running and cant wait to hear the TTi exhaust with Flowmaster Original 40's.

I will post my results (or more questions) as soon as my parts come in.  Hopefully it goes well.....

Maybe some day we will have the opportunity to meet and I can buy you guys a beer ( or two or three) as a thank you for all your help!!!

T1971Chally
Ted
1971 Dodge Challenger 440 Magnum
:cheers:

Offline moper

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Re: Carb Help Needed - Please!!!
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2010 - 12:22:53 PM »
Well, many people don't bother with teh vacuum advance. So my impression is on your car it wasn't used. It's your choice whether or not to run it. I would for the part throttle drivability and economy, but that's just me.

Offline t1971Chally

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Re: Carb Help Needed - Please!!!
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2010 - 08:17:04 PM »
Hey guys,

I just found a great website that does an OUTSTANDING job of explaining timing using video and text.  I am not sure if there is a resource section here on cuda-challenger.com but this would be a great reference for others who have the same questions of timing.  Here is the web site:  www.setyourtiming.com.   It is sponsored by MSD....I am sure you guys know who that is.

Be sure to check out the video.....

T1971Chally
Ted
1971 Dodge Challenger 440 Magnum
:cheers:

Offline moper

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Re: Carb Help Needed - Please!!!
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2010 - 08:23:44 AM »
Good video... and good explanation. But...sigh... nothing on the vacuum advance...lol. :violin:

Offline t1971Chally

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Re: Carb Help Needed -HELP!!!! SOS!!!
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2010 - 04:04:40 PM »
Ok, Where to start:
I took the procedure you gave me and performed it to a tee.  Here is what I come up with

1st.  Checked timing at idle: Timing = 23, Vacuum = 0
2nd. Reconnected Vacuum to Dist Ran engine to 3000rpm:  Timing= 70 last clear mark on harmonic balancer is 60
3rd  Connected Vacuum Gauge to port on carb ran engine to 3000rpm - Timing = 45, Vacuum = 21

So according to the instructions:
(Advance timing 3000RPM Run)70 - (3000RPM Run 2nd time)45 = 25 the amount Advance Timing is adding
(3000RPM run 2nd time) 45 - (Initial Timing Idle)23 = 22 The amount the mechanical Advance is adding
So, Initial Timing 22 + Vacuum Adv 25 + Mech Adv 22 = 67

So, where would you guys start with the adjustments?

Thanks again for all the help!!!

T2971Chally
Ted
1971 Dodge Challenger 440 Magnum
:cheers:

Offline Bullitt-

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Re: Carb Help Needed - Please!!!
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2010 - 04:09:21 PM »
Back down your initial timing around 15 at idle   15+22=37    unless you want to adjust for less mechanical advance you probably want to leave the vacuum off.         
   
« Last Edit: March 14, 2010 - 04:12:23 PM by Bullitt- »
Wade  73 Rallye 340..'77 Millennium Falcon...13 R/T Classic   Huntsville, AL
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Offline t1971Chally

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Re: Carb Help Needed - Please!!!
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2010 - 04:33:18 PM »
Bullitt,

Gave it a try, when I back the initial timing down to 15 the engine starts running rough (really rough) and I start losing the signal from the number 1 spark plug to the timing light.

Any additional ideas or thoughts?

t1971Chally
Ted
1971 Dodge Challenger 440 Magnum
:cheers:

Offline t1971Chally

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Re: Carb Help Needed - Please!!! SOS!!!
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2010 - 05:23:05 PM »
I forgot to add to the previous response,

I did plug off the vacuum advance so that there is none.

So all I am left with is Initial and mechanical. 

Again, tried backing down to 15 and engine ran rough really rough.

Any ideas?

T1971Chally
Ted
1971 Dodge Challenger 440 Magnum
:cheers:

Offline Bullitt-

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Re: Carb Help Needed - Please!!!
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2010 - 06:25:35 PM »
If all the other dynamics of your timing, cam, timing chain, are correct there are other reasons it is running rough.... It concerns me that you are loosing the signal from #1, that should never happen, maybe issues in the distributor. My timing light fires even when cranking.
   With the timing backed off what is was but still running frairly smooth can you adjust the carburetor mixture screws & get more or less RPM? Your carb may be idled so high that your not on the idle circuit.   

   I read the statement below recently & got me to thinking so this is how I adjusted my Stock 340 to get it to idle smoothly at a lower RPM than had been possible before.

"Idle transfer slots
Pay close attention to the idle transfer slots(rectangular)in the front of the primary bores of the base plate. When the carb is correct in cfm's and jetting, the slots will only show a square when the butterflies are in the normal idle postition. If the slot is a rather large exposed area, the carb will need the inital timing bumped up which will increase the idle speed and will allow the idle speed screw to be backed down, thus exposing less of the transfer slot. If the slot is less than a square, back off the inital timing and crank up the idle speed."



   With the carb off I set the idle adjustment as described above (square) then never touched it again. Install carb start & let get completely warmed up,  adjust the mixture screws for max-vacuum, adjust the timing for max-vacuum, readjust mixture for max-vacuum and timing until no more increase can be made, then back off the timing to 1000RPM.  Readjust the mixture screws for max-vacuum, back off the timing to 1000RPM. Continue this until no more increase can be made, then turn in each mixture screw equally until idle is about 750RPM NEVER touching the idle screw.(mixture screws should be about the same # turns out)  My motor starts better & runs smoother than I can remember & comes out of the hole great.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2010 - 06:35:17 PM by Bullitt- »
Wade  73 Rallye 340..'77 Millennium Falcon...13 R/T Classic   Huntsville, AL
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