1970 Challenger Restore Planning Phase

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Offline geminiviper

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1970 Challenger Restore Planning Phase
« on: March 18, 2010 - 03:23:48 PM »
Okay so I'm going to pick up from my introduction on the newbie intro page. 

WARNING LONG NEWBIE POST!!
 :newbie:
So  :cheers:

I'm ambitious and don't physically have my car yet, thus no pictures.  I'll do what I can to get picks.  Here's the deal with the car as far as I know.  I'm buying it from the father of a co-worker.  The co-worker states the father is a very private kind of guy and does not like visits from people he doesn't know and would like me to only come in the company of his son.  Thus I have to take leave and the son has to take leave at the same time, then we have to drive out about 4 or 5 hours, two states away to see the car.  Then if I want it I hand the guy some money and it's mine.  He's not in a hurry to sell it so I have time, according to the son.  I'm working on getting it as soon as possible but life happens and when you're young and not rich it takes longer to do some things.  So I'm left wanting and hoping for this car.  In the long run I'll get a 70-74 Chally or Cuda.  I don't know why but they are my favorite cars in the history of cars.  I am a huge fan of the Hemi so it's gotta have one.

Background on me:
US Air Force, stationed in southern Illinois just outside St. Louis MO.  I'm 27 years old and married with one child.  Probably 12-18 months worth of deployments left in my enlistment.  Moving to another base is likely to happen at least once in the next 3 years.  After that who knows.  I have absolutely no experience or training of any kind in auto mechanics.  I have no problem taking my time and learning.  While my wife might, I don't have a problem buying all the tools to do the job.  Or at least renting them.  I'm not just interested in having the car, else I would just go buy one already done.  I'm interested in restoring it, I want to do the work, get the experience.  It's kind of a way for me to become one with the car, ya know? (that sounds weird)

Ambition:
A 70s Chally or Cuda with some rocks.  I want to hit 800-1000 HP without nitrous.  It's gotta be able to kill other cars without too much effort.  I want the old Chally/Cuda look on the outside and something a bit more modern on the inside.  I'm not into huge stereos or in dash navigation or any of that crap.  It's gotta sound like it's got muscle.  I'm not interested in the blowers that are raised above the hood.  I like that rally hood the 70 Chally has.

Engine
Initially I was thinking a 6.1L Hemi but Niel (Chryco Physco) offered that I could attain the 800-1000 HP I'm looking for by doing a 440/512 stroker.  Now, not knowing anything about engines and not sure what a stroker is, it sounds cool.  I thought I would start with a block and build the engine on it.  Avoiding buying a working/crate engine and then gutting it only to buy performance parts.  73Chally offered the option of buying a complete drivetrain out of a totalled Chally thus cutting cost on what could be a nearly brand new engine anyway.  So what thoughts do you all have on this?  With a goal of 800-1000 HP and probably something like a 7 second 1/8 mile run, 440/512 stroker vs 6.1L Hemi.

Carbed or EFI?
While I'm paranoid the grid will one day just go off and I don't really want a computerized car, I think I still would like to have EFI.  Even if the grid goes down the Chally won't drive for too long after.  I think I want to go EFI because I was reading about an EFI system from FAST that self tunes on the fly.  That's important to me because my home state has a lot of elevation changes, and I don't mean from 800 ft. to 1200 ft.  I mean like 4000 ft. to 6000 ft. and back to 4000 ft. in less than 50 miles in some places.  So EFI that tunes on the fly sounds useful. 

Handling
I want it to handle around curves, cause there are a lot of those back home, but I want it to handle on the straight road, and I mean like racing kind of handling.  I don't intend on street racing but I want to be able to post up a few kills here.  Additionally though I do want to be able to take it to the local track and do some racing there.

Transmission
I think this one is not too hard of a choice, it has to be a manual trans.  I know there are all kinds of cool components that will make the auto get up and go comparable to manuals but I just like having a manual.  What would be the difference in a 4 speed and a 6 speed?  What are the benefits of one over the other?

Interior
I want this car to be my daily driver.  I don't buy things to look at them.  I want to drive the crap out of it.  So it has to be comfortable on the inside.  Again, something a little more modern looking on the inside.  Some cool dials and stuff.  Maybe a computer system that connects to all the instruments and digital speed-o or something like that.  Stereo is important only to the point that everyone needs tunes but beyond that it doesn't matter. 

Exhaust
Obviously needs to make it sound like it's got a beast under the hood.  I like the stories of someone's exhaust scaring away the ricers.  Plus it has to add performance.

Am I missing anything?

Ben

Understeer is hitting the wall with your front end.
Oversteer is hitting the wall with your back end.
Horsepower is how fast you can hit the wall.
Torque is how far you can push that wall after you hit it.




Offline challengermaniac

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Re: 1970 Challenger Restore Planning Phase
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2010 - 06:04:20 PM »
Ben (with a lot of ambition),

You have a lot going on here buddy and while you are good at organizing your thoughts, I would also recommend you pencil in $$$$$ estimates to create this car along with additional $$$$ in the cost to operate it as a daily driver.  In all honesty, it sounds extremely expensive and if you do go ahead and build it in this manner, you will be likely hard pressed to get anything near what you have into it should you decide to sell down the road. 

If you really want a daily driver you can afford to drive, I would highly recommend a new Challenger and then restore the 1970 closer to original.

Just my 2 cents, Charlie

70 Challenger
69 Camaro RS 
Charlie
70 Challenger 340/4 Purple
70 Challenger T/A Red
Edmonds, WA

Offline RB2929

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Re: 1970 Challenger Restore Planning Phase
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2010 - 06:38:09 PM »
Ben-
Welcome to C-C.Com
Are you stationed at Scott AFB?  My brother-in-law is stationed at Scott.  He’s the commander of the CE Group, Col Richard Houghton.  Although he’s a very nice man, he’s not a car guy.

That being said, your 27 years old, thus, you have roughly another 13 years to retirement.  I point that out because the number one tool you will need for the rebuild is a garage. Remember that when you PCS from assignment to assignment.  Also, if/when you get overseas orders, you won’t be able to take the car with you.  So, long-term parking will be required.  Don’t think of using the long-term parking provided by your Base.  It will be outside w/o any attention given to the car.

Enough with the negative waves.

The best advise I can provide is gather all the pertinent reference documents you can: Chrysler Service Manuals, a Year One catalog, Chilton’s, the several Mopar mags available, etc.  Think of them as your T.O.s.  Read them and become friends with them.  It’s a lot easier to the references in front of you than to researching on the internet for while doing the work.  (I research each project on the internet using the hardcopy docs, along with downloaded info, during each project.  Then again, I like pictures).
- Research, research, research.  It will save a lot of heartache.  The guys/gals here are great with info, but you will still want the info at your finger tips while working.

Family: the car hobby is fun, but make no mistake, it takes a lot of time (and funds).  You’ll find yourself using every weekend and spare hours during the week working on the car.  I’m not talking about working just a few weekends; you’re looking at a couple of years.  I think members here will back me on that one.
- It’s not a negative wave, it’s letting you now what to prepare for.

Aside from the other obvious helpful hints: Lots of pictures, bag/tag everything, save receipts, keep a log, and, post your pics here.

Good luck and please keep us posted (on the car and assignments)
Ron


Offline FJ5_440

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Re: 1970 Challenger Restore Planning Phase
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2010 - 06:40:11 PM »
What you seem to be desribing is a pretty extensive "Pro Touring" build.  They are generally pretty tough to accomplish without a ton of skills, or a ton of money, or a half ton of each.  Just putting together a streetable Ebody with an 800 horsepower engine is a pretty intense project.  Take a good look at the XV motorsports web page and check out what they offer, and what it costs to play at that level.  That will give you some good ideas, and an idea of budget needs.
** Shane **

Offline dutch

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Re: 1970 Challenger Restore Planning Phase
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2010 - 07:59:46 PM »
welcome  :wave:

those are some serious "want to`s "  :woo:    Doesn`t have to be a problem, but you have to realize what it takes to build a car in general... not even talking pro touring...
I have an old house that needs some attention here & there,  a wife who likes musclecars, but doesn`t love em and a 9 yr. old son, and a job and some other stuff...  I am a welder/ blacksmith and did all work on my cuda by myself. It took every spare minute for 2 years to just get the body restored & painted  :22yikes:  but that is not the worst problem... once your into the project you will think A LOT  :screwy: :screwy: :screwy: &
spend a huge amount of non spare minutes on the internet to verify your thoughts and find yourself with more questions to be answered... so beware... a project this size can be devestating for your relation too.
I guess this sounds a bit dramatic,  but I ve seen projects and relations die from this... 
It will take a big part of your life for a long time  :grinyes:   and a ton of money obviously...    BUT... when finished  :ylsuper: :ylsuper: :burnout: :bigsmile: :bigsmile: :bigsmile:
*** Bart ***

Offline geminiviper

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Re: 1970 Challenger Restore Planning Phase
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2010 - 11:06:21 PM »
The advice is perfect.  What I needed was real car guys with real advice.  Thanks.  Now realizing I don't need Godzilla under my hood I can start looking at something more manageable.  So let me rethink a little, I want class and some power but I suppose too much of both could be bad.  I've got a lot of time to think about it and make some plans.  Thanks guys.  I'll poke around a bit on these forums and when I get something started I'll let you guys know.  I appreciate it much.
Ben

Understeer is hitting the wall with your front end.
Oversteer is hitting the wall with your back end.
Horsepower is how fast you can hit the wall.
Torque is how far you can push that wall after you hit it.

Offline Street_Challenged73

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Re: 1970 Challenger Restore Planning Phase
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2010 - 11:48:00 PM »
A more attainable (& useful) power level would probably be in the range of 600-700 hp. :cheers:  If you want the car to sound like a throaty muscle car, then maybe the growl from a stroked 400 or 440 is the recipe of choice.  However, choosing that will most likely make your weekly fill-ups a little on the expensive side.  Your original idea with a 6.1L Hemi is pretty sound, but it will be costly to retrofit it along with a transmission & all the other essentials for running a late-model swapped engine. :thumbsup:

Now, if you still want it to be very respectable but don't necessarily need the exhaust note of a big block, then I'd look into a 340 or 360 build-up.  They are known to handle power quite well & the introduction of twin-turbocharged or large centrifugal superchargers meant for the LA-style MoPars (318, 340, & 360 small blocks) have been proven to make some serious horsepower whenever you mash the accelerator. :burnout:

I'm personally going the route of building a stroked 340 (400+) and setting it up to accept a pair of turbos to really give me an aggressive engine combination that can still be driven frequently without breaking the bank on each fill up. :biggrin:
1973 Dodge Challenger......................The ongoing project. (00/----\00)
1991 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo....The sunny day cruiser (RTBoost)
1990 Toyota Celica GT Liftback...........The new daily & winter driver.
All-American Muscle: 'Cudas and Challengers...Still the Elite and always will be.

                                                                                             
                 
Street_Challenged73 from Wisconsin

Offline geminiviper

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Re: 1970 Challenger Restore Planning Phase
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2010 - 04:31:35 PM »
Sweet.

So I'm in the works for actually going to see my car for the first time soon.  Albeit, probably not till summer as the Son of the seller is not going out there till then.  However, I was told this morning that the car is primed and ready for paint.  I'm told there was only a couple rust spots and they have already been fixed.  That being said, it sounds like what I'm looking at is solid, just lacks an engine, tranny and interior.   It is possible though when the Seller comes out here in the next month or so he'll bring it with him so it's entirely possible I'll have the vehicle at my house next month.  Hopefully I'll get some pictures up then.

I assume from the primed state the next step is paint and engine.  For engines.  What kind of price range am I looking at for a small block 340?  What about a big block 440 stroker?  I'm more leaning toward the 440 stroker because that seems to be the most common realistic alternative advice to the Godzilla engine I was thinking about.  I understand the cost of driving could be higher with the bigger block but I'm not really that worried about it.  There are a couple truths in life and one is gas will always be expensive and I will always have to drive to work.  I was looking on...  440 Source's webpage at a fully machined 440 block with a 0.06 over (Not sure what that means) for $1295.  And Stealth heads for $450 per head so for block and heads I'm looking at about $2300, a crankshaft is $600...  $600 per piston and on and on,  So I'm still looking at spending $5-$6K on 440 stroker right?

For paint.  I'm not sure what I want.  Originally I had pictured a high gloss black exterior and probably a black interior.  My wife says I should definatly not do plum or lime like the original colors were, what color schemes look good on a 70 Chally?  On that note, does anyone know a good place to get a car painted in the St. Louis MO area?


Ron (RB2929),
   Thanks for the advice.  Its good to know someone out there does understand the lifestyle of an Air Force person.  However, not being lucky enough to be in the Chair Force I have no intention of re-enlisting in 3 years when my enlistment is up.  I'm happy with what I've done so far and with the possibility of doing more of the same for the next two or three years but my wife has had her pains, I have been shot at, blown up and blasted from here to there.  I've seen combat in more than one country and missed the birth of my son and I'm ready to put that all behind me.  So as far as where to put it and the overseas travel, problem solved.  By the way, I don't know your brother in-law but it's nice to know how small the world really is.
Ben

Understeer is hitting the wall with your front end.
Oversteer is hitting the wall with your back end.
Horsepower is how fast you can hit the wall.
Torque is how far you can push that wall after you hit it.

Offline Bullitt-

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Re: 1970 Challenger Restore Planning Phase
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2010 - 04:54:26 PM »
 :popcorn:
Wade  73 Rallye 340..'77 Millennium Falcon...13 R/T Classic   Huntsville, AL
Screwed by Photobucket!

Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: 1970 Challenger Restore Planning Phase
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2010 - 06:17:16 PM »
See Gary at Maaco in Kirkwood, MO. They painted 9 cars for me. Most around $200. They have a special right now for $250.    They painted my car. This is the $899 base coat, clear coat urethane, sand and buff job. I had it painted over 8 years ago, drive the hell out of it every year and haven't waxed it once. It doesn't lose it's shine when gas overflows by the fill tube.  They use DUPONT brand paint.
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0


Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: 1970 Challenger Restore Planning Phase
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2010 - 06:23:47 PM »
PSSSssssstt.  Tell him Rob sent you.   I'm probably going to have him paint my Cuda and Vert and have been telling people about him for years. (trying to get a discount)

He also owns the South St. Louis Maaco.
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0


Offline Bullitt-

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Re: 1970 Challenger Restore Planning Phase
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2010 - 08:19:46 PM »

Am I missing anything?




    Brakes 
Wade  73 Rallye 340..'77 Millennium Falcon...13 R/T Classic   Huntsville, AL
Screwed by Photobucket!

Offline kotakid

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Re: 1970 Challenger Restore Planning Phase
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2010 - 09:34:17 PM »
I seen a 318 in mopar muscle magazine and they made that puppy put out over 600 hp.  Don't always need a big block to achieve such high hp especially with a mopar ;)

Offline geminiviper

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Re: 1970 Challenger Restore Planning Phase
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2010 - 11:33:42 AM »
Tomorrow morning I'll see the sellers son and see if I can't get him to get some pics and a VIN. 

I've decided to buy a working engine and hopefully a tranny.  Drop those in and have a driver instead of a roller.  So I had some help last night from some of you awesome guys looking for some engines.  I have a better idea of what I'm looking for.  This is what I would like to know though....   When I buy an engine I need to know what to do with it before I put it in.  I know I can't expect it to just fire up and be awesome.  So, I think one piece of advice I got was do a compression test on it.  How, where does that work?  Is that something I have to take it to someone else to do or can that be done by me? 

Also what qualifies an engine as being a Hemi?  And would a 440 Stroker be a hemi?  If not would it be worth getting/building a 440 hemi stroker?

Anything else I need to do with the engine to make sure it is in good condition?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010 - 01:04:39 PM by geminiviper »
Ben

Understeer is hitting the wall with your front end.
Oversteer is hitting the wall with your back end.
Horsepower is how fast you can hit the wall.
Torque is how far you can push that wall after you hit it.

Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: 1970 Challenger Restore Planning Phase
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2010 - 01:57:14 PM »
A 440 isn't a Hemi.  If you want a hemi engine, get a 5.7 from a junk yard. You'll be fuel injected, have a hemi, and can get a fairly new enfgine that doesn't need to be rebuilt.
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0