Author Topic: front suspension questions...  (Read 6131 times)

Offline TROUBLE987

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front suspension questions...
« on: April 03, 2010 - 12:15:41 AM »
upper control arms One brand new pair of B/E body tubular upper control arms with up to 6 degrees of positive caster built in! whats the deal with this 6 degrees of more caster,whats the problem with the stock stuff...i hear a lot of people say things..i have the magnumforce in the race car,but i didnt set anything up..the chassis shop did..so if i want a car thats going to handle did in need a differant set,or what cause i have no clue..also a manual gearbox how good will it work with 18"wheels and the car lower down..will it be hard to turn...and how low can you drop the car before you start to mess the tires up..and need drop spindles...sorry for all the question but i want to know before i tear all this down and start spending money on stuff i dont need...also im getting a aftermarket k-member later so i need to make th factory the best i can




Offline Aussie Challenger

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Re: front suspension questions...
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2010 - 02:53:40 AM »
The standard upper wishbones don't allow for the extra positive caster that helps keep the car tracking straight, the after market build extra caster in to help.   :burnout:
Don't lower too much as the suspension needs to move up & down to work. It will hit on the bump stop rubber, these can be modified a little but must allow for reasonable movement. Damage to the lower wishbone & front rail can result and a car that won't handle will result.   :working:
Dave

Offline TROUBLE987

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Re: front suspension questions...
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2010 - 03:12:26 AM »
The standard upper wishbones don't allow for the extra positive caster that helps keep the car tracking straight, the after market build extra caster in to help.   :burnout:
Don't lower too much as the suspension needs to move up & down to work. It will hit on the bump stop rubber, these can be modified a little but must allow for reasonable movement. Damage to the lower wishbone & front rail can result and a car that won't handle will result.   :working:
thx for the info that clears up some of my questions

Offline HP2

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Re: front suspension questions...
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2010 - 10:18:39 PM »
On a mopar uper contorl arm, caster/camber range is limited by the range of adjustment available in the bushings. you can only twist them so far befor eyou run out of adjustment, and often to get the desired camber you have to give up caster. Building additional caster in to teh arm allows additional adjustment.

You don't need an aftermarket suspension to get good handling, but many people think you do. One big advantage of aftermaket set ups is that they typically drop 100# off the nose of the car, have a broader range of adjustment, and can rapidly and easily change spring rates.

Manual steering boxes do require more effort to operate at low speed, especially if you use more modern alignment specs. Typically a larger diameter wheel does not make a big difference in effort, but the additional width that typically accompanies those diameters will increase the required effort.

You can drop a mopar a fair amount, but turning down the bars to lower the car will impact the range of adjustment you have in the alignment effort. It also is contingent upon what size bars you decide to run too as bigger bars will need less travel than smaller bars and can be turned down lower.

If you will eventually swap to an aftermarket set up, you may not want to drop too much coin in making the stock stuff work good. But, like a lot of things in life, good is a somewhat subjective term that only you can qualify.

Offline shadango

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Re: front suspension questions...
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2010 - 07:21:49 AM »
I installed Moog offset bushings in the stock UCAs (you install differently than the directions say though) and replaced my strut rods with CAP Auto dynamic adjustables and the alignment shop was able to get everything dialed in with the extra caster we like.   :2thumbs:

Offline TROUBLE987

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Re: front suspension questions...
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2010 - 12:22:54 PM »
why cant this stuff just be easy...it would be nice if we had a page that said get these parts,etc,etc..if your going to stay stock ride height,and this if your lowering car,torsion bars,etc,etc,I know how to make a car hook and run fast..not handle and go around corners ...im so lost

Offline shadango

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Re: front suspension questions...
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2010 - 01:59:02 PM »
I feel your pain....but can you imagine if we didnt even have the web like back in the 80s?   :22yikes:

It was all whoo you knew and what you learned on your own....much slower.

Now, you post a question online and have a bunch of answers in no time.  LOL

I dont know how they did it back in the day.

Offline TROUBLE987

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Re: front suspension questions...
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2010 - 02:07:29 PM »
I feel your pain....but can you imagine if we didnt even have the web like back in the 80s?   :22yikes:

It was all whoo you knew and what you learned on your own....much slower.

Now, you post a question online and have a bunch of answers in no time.  LOL

I dont know how they did it back in the day.
yea its a lot easier today that's for sure

Offline HP2

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Re: front suspension questions...
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2010 - 07:41:27 PM »
Well, it can be that easy. You call up a supplier, tell them what you want, drop off your car, hand over your credit card, and everything gets done. Thats why you run in to so many people who don't know much about their set up.

Seriously though, lets try it this way...what do you want to spend and what do you consider "good" handling and what do you have now? Upgrades could be a little as a few hundred bucks all the way up to a few thousand, all with the original set up. So if you eventually going to ditch it all for something else, how far do you really want to go now?

Offline TROUBLE987

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Re: front suspension questions...
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2010 - 07:59:48 PM »
Well, it can be that easy. You call up a supplier, tell them what you want, drop off your car, hand over your credit card, and everything gets done. Thats why you run in to so many people who don't know much about their set up.

Seriously though, lets try it this way...what do you want to spend and what do you consider "good" handling and what do you have now? Upgrades could be a little as a few hundred bucks all the way up to a few thousand, all with the original set up. So if you eventually going to ditch it all for something else, how far do you really want to go now?
I have nothing for the front except for disk brakes and spindles..i got a power steering box,but the pump and all the brackets are gone..so im droping everything out the front,i need new everything,and the reason i asked about the manual gear box was i have one but i didnt want to put it on the car with 18"wheels and install the motor ,trans,k-member and have to take back apart cause i cant hardly turn!!!oh and as far as handling im not road racing,i just had a dart that didnt handle worth a crap..i just want the car to set level,and handle good thats all,later im going to put aftermarket k-member,and stuff under it..i guess maybe im looking at the suspension like a engine you need to match the front and rear to get the most out of what you got,thats all,thx for your help too

Offline HWS

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Re: front suspension questions...
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2010 - 09:17:14 PM »
I'm new to this site, but am finding it very helpful as I'm rebuilding the front end under my 74 Challenger now.  I'm curious about the comment on the Moog offset bushings.  Are they a must to get 3-4 deg. of caster, and how should they be installed?  Shadango says he had to stray from the instructions.  Thanks.

Offline HP2

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Re: front suspension questions...
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2010 - 11:09:01 PM »
I have nothing for the front except for disk brakes and spindles..

Seriously, oh crap. Ya, you've got a lot of work ahead of you.

Well, if I were in the same position, and of the same mind set that I'd be stepping up to a different system in coming years, I'd be checking classifieds, swap meets, and salvage yards to locate as much of what I needed as cheaply as possible. I'd spring for used stock stuff since it can be had for the least amount of money. Obviously all new ball joints, tie rod ends and bushings are a given. The offset bushings are a cheaper way of getting caster than tubular arms. 1" torsion bars can be picked up new at a reasonable price. 1.125 front sway bars are similarly inexpensive. Combine that with some stock style, XHD springs, some gas charged shocks and you got the basic hardware foundation for a decent street ride for not a lot of money. Once it is all together then DO NOT use the factor alignment specs. Get the tires and wheels on it you want, set the ride height you want, then take it to the alignment shop and tell them not to alter the height, but gve you as much caster as possible up to 5-6*, set camber at 0 to -.5 and set toe in at .0625. Have the thrust checked as well and have it set to 0. That will give you a ride that is better than a late model mini-van performance wise.

Offline HP2

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Re: front suspension questions...
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2010 - 11:13:23 PM »
I'm new to this site, but am finding it very helpful as I'm rebuilding the front end under my 74 Challenger now.  I'm curious about the comment on the Moog offset bushings.  Are they a must to get 3-4 deg. of caster, and how should they be installed?  Shadango says he had to stray from the instructions.  Thanks.

You should be able to get 3* caster and 0 camber with the stock bushings if your car is not set too low. The offset bushings wll get you out past that to a meaasurement that is closer to what most current cars run. They come with instructions on how to use them, but you need to install them the opposite of what the instructions say to maximize caster. Using them according to the instructions will get you additional camber, which will not be of as big a benefit on the street as the caster would be.

Offline TROUBLE987

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Re: front suspension questions...
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2010 - 11:37:42 PM »
Seriously, oh crap. Ya, you've got a lot of work ahead of you.

Well, if I were in the same position, and of the same mind set that I'd be stepping up to a different system in coming years, I'd be checking classifieds, swap meets, and salvage yards to locate as much of what I needed as cheaply as possible. I'd spring for used stock stuff since it can be had for the least amount of money. Obviously all new ball joints, tie rod ends and bushings are a given. The offset bushings are a cheaper way of getting caster than tubular arms. 1" torsion bars can be picked up new at a reasonable price. 1.125 front sway bars are similarly inexpensive. Combine that with some stock style, XHD springs, some gas charged shocks and you got the basic hardware foundation for a decent street ride for not a lot of money. Once it is all together then DO NOT use the factor alignment specs. Get the tires and wheels on it you want, set the ride height you want, then take it to the alignment shop and tell them not to alter the height, but gve you as much caster as possible up to 5-6*, set camber at 0 to -.5 and set toe in at .0625. Have the thrust checked as well and have it set to 0. That will give you a ride that is better than a late model mini-van performance wise.
HP2 im sorry i thought you ask what have i bought so far...i got everthing stock under the car,its got a 440 in it with the 318 torsion bars,it was a 318 car and i swapped it out,i got the stock sway bar there too its not hooked up though..i just need to go through it,i was told to go with the espo springs though

Offline HWS

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Re: front suspension questions...
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2010 - 12:52:09 AM »
Thanks to HP2 for the input.  I was planning the 1" T-bars based on what I've been reading on this site.  I'll order up the offset bushings to go with the other pile of Moog boxes from Rock Auto.  One more question: stock 318 rear springs to go with 1" T-bars and a 1.125" front sway bar, or move up to the XHD springs?