Author Topic: who makes a voltage gauge to replace amp gauge  (Read 21849 times)

Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: who makes a voltage gauge to replace amp gauge
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2010 - 12:02:17 PM »
Not exactly sure if they are using an old gauge or actually selling you a new gauge and a sending unit. It also says that you have to use their solid state 5v regulator too ($50). They don't have any instructions on their site yet.

I'm looking for a spare gas gauge to play with and mount in the ammeter spot. I'll try to figure out a circuit to time a grounding pulse to the gauge as the voltage increases. Might have to dig the old electronic experiments book out.
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0





Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: who makes a voltage gauge to replace amp gauge
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2010 - 12:38:35 AM »
I e-mailed Dash-worx asking the price of the Gauge sending unit and this is their reply.  I replied back that I just wanted the sending unit because I still want it to say "AMPS", and I'll supply my own temp gauge to use in it's place. Haven't heard back yet.

Dear shelbydogg,

We offer the volt meter conversion for $150.00. You would need to send us your current ammeter gauge and we will convert it to a volt meter for you. This price includes the new gauge, silkscreening the face, painting the needle, calibrating your new gauge, the volt meter sending unit and the wiring. You will also need to purchase one of our voltage limiters if don't already have one in order for the voltmeter sending unit to work. Our limiter's are $50.00. We recommend that you convert your ammeter to a volt meter if your alternator puts out over 70 amps. Please let me know if you have any other questions.
Thank you for your business,
Erin Gayer - Office Manager
Dash-Worx


- dash-worx
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0


Offline brads70

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Re: who makes a voltage gauge to replace amp gauge
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2010 - 08:18:46 AM »
So I'm looking for another amp gauge non-ralley to send them. I have a 70 Challenger, will any year e-body work, Cuda or Challenger? 70-74?
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
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Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: who makes a voltage gauge to replace amp gauge
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2010 - 06:55:00 PM »
I think that they are all of the same year after year.


I was e-mailed back from Dash-Worx.  They say the sending unit is $90 by itself.

Any electronic gurus out there that have a circuit that vill convert a voltage signal to a resistance signal?  Remember, we can leave one gauge leg grounded then limit the 8 to 18 vdc to the other leg to swing the needle. I might try it with a variable dc power supply and some resistors.
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0


Offline UKcuda

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Re: who makes a voltage gauge to replace amp gauge
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2010 - 05:05:01 AM »
Not sure what you mean about converting a voltage signal to a resistance signal.

The gauges (ammeter excepted) are already voltmeters (of a sort).

To use one to read battery/alternator voltage you just need to get it into the right range.  With a voltmeter you do that by putting resistance in series with it.

So I agree about grounding the -ve side of the gauge.  Here's the theory:

From tests other people have done it appears that each gauge has an internal resistance of 10-20 ohms (the resistance actually increases quite a lot with voltage due to them warming up).

The gauges work in series with the senders which have a variable resistance.  To keep it simple I'll just consider the temperature gauge, but the theory is the same for all of them.

The temperature sender (apparently) has a resistance of a few hundred ohms cold and it drops to about 10 ohms when it's really hot. 

That means that when it is full scale the gauge is measuring about 2.5 volts (because the sender resistance is similar to the gauge resistance and the total voltage in the circuit is 5 volts).

So it seems you need to change the range of the gauge from it's design range of about 2.5 volts to 18 volts.  Alternatively you want to change it so it reads 12 volts round about the middle of the gauge.

Working on a gauge resistance of 20 ohms when it's warm (ie. when it's full scale), we want the gauge to see 2.5 volts when there is actually18 volts.  The equation is 20/(20 + R) x 18 = 2.5  where R is the resistor you need in series.

Solving that for R gives a value of 124 ohms.

On the same basis, but assuming the gauge resistance is onlt 15 ohms when it's reading half way, then to make it read 12 volts at the middle of the scale, you would place a 130 ohm resistor in series with the gauge.  That way 12 volts would look like 1.24 volts to the gauge.

None of this will make the gauge start at 8 volts, assuming it is designed to start at 0 volts.  However, I don't think it is.  It has a positive stop at the bottom end which suggests it needs a certain amount before it will "get out of bed" in any event.

That would also throw out the calculations somewhat as far as half scale is concerned.

I've got a spare set of gauges to play with.  If I get time at the weekend I'll maybe try out the theory.

Edit - Hey I just realised, the temp gauge is the best one to use as well because the other two both swing the wrong way
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010 - 05:17:08 AM by UKcuda »
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Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: who makes a voltage gauge to replace amp gauge
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2010 - 11:18:42 AM »
Ahhh, Good old Ohm's law.    Yes, I thought about this after I posted about the $90 sending unit.   I was thinking backwards because Dash-worx requires you to hook up the guage supply to their new $50 limiter and also use the $90 sending unit. I thought about THEIR circuit that takes a voltage, then converts it to a resistance, the higher the voltage, the less resistance.  Then I realized that all of those gauges are voltmeters anyway and I can just ground the negative leg then vary the voltage to the positive leg with resistors, without using the 9805 or the D-W regulator. A spare temp gauge (for the rallye) was the most simple way. 

I liked your idea converting the AMP guage but was looking for a more simple solution without all of the assembly and glueing od magnets and the coil.
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0


Offline UKcuda

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Re: who makes a voltage gauge to replace amp gauge
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2010 - 02:01:09 PM »
Sorry I didn't mean to sound condesending; obviously you know about ohms law.

Yeah my amp gauge conversion was mainly just my own nuttyness to see if it would work - but I suppose at least I didn't have to change the letters on the face.

Dash-worx way of doing it does seem to be adding a lot of unnecessary complexity.  It's a bit like translating a conversation into Chinese and then back again into English when all you really had to do was ask them to speak a bit quieter.

I can't see any reason the temp. gauge and resistor set up won't work OK.  Though one thing I have noticed with my converted amp gauge is it responds much faster than the other gauges, I think it's a good reaction speed for a voltmeter because when I go on and off idle I can see the alternator coming in and out without it being too twitchy, if you know what I mean.

Using the temp. gauge is going to have a much slower reaction time.  As I'm sure you know, those gauges work by heating a little strip and it takes time to heat up and cool down so they act really damped.  Dash-worx system wouldn't change that though, and cruising along it should still be obvious to see if you've got charge or not.

I'm definitely going to try it with my spare temp. gauge tomorrow and see what happens.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010 - 02:03:39 PM by UKcuda »
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Offline 0tter45

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Re: who makes a voltage gauge to replace amp gauge
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2010 - 02:21:57 PM »
I have one of Dash works ammeter to volt meter conversion it seems to work fine.

Otter

Offline UKcuda

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Re: who makes a voltage gauge to replace amp gauge
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2010 - 03:35:50 PM »
I have one of Dash works ammeter to volt meter conversion it seems to work fine.

Otter

There's no reason why it shouldn't work fine.

We're just looking into alternatives.
'72 'cuda

Offline shadango

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Re: who makes a voltage gauge to replace amp gauge
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2010 - 09:35:02 PM »
I'd love a cheap and reliable alternative.

I recently bought a gauge cluster , complete with clock.....to replace my speedo...figured I could replace the voltage reg. and the ammeter all at once and just drop it in complete.....

I am crossing my fingers that my speedo doesnt die or that my ammeter doesnt fry between now and when I do it....    :22yikes:

So come on guy figure this out.    :bigsmile:

Offline UKcuda

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Re: who makes a voltage gauge to replace amp gauge
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2010 - 08:01:17 AM »
OK, here we go.

This is using a Rallye temp. gauge.

Connected to a spare 12v battery, in order to see any movement on the gauge needed a 150 ohm resistor in series (R = 150), and at that I could just barely see the gauge move.  There was about 1v at the gauge.  That means the gauge resistance at the bottom of the scale is about 13.6 ohms.

Swapping for R = 100 the gauge moved just a little way onto the scale and showed about 1.5v across the gauge posts (which is consistent with ohms law if gauge resistance was 14.2 ohms.  So it seems it is true that the gauge resistance increases with more voltage (presumably due to the fact it works by heating itself up internally).

The increasing resistance is helpful as it makes the gauge more sensitive higher up, which is good for use as a charging voltage indicator because there will be more deflection at higher voltages where we want to see some movement more easily.

To get the gauge to half way I had to use R = 65.  that measured at about 2.2 volts on the gauge which means it's resistance had gone up to about 14.6 ohms.

Working back on the basis that we want the gauge to show 12 volts dead center, so R=65 is about right, that means the gauge would not start to move until total voltage was about 5.8 volts.

That is also good as it means (even if it was linear) we ought to see the gauge move about a fifth to a sixth further when V=14 instead of V=12, ie. when the system is charging.

However, one bad thing is the gauge took a little over one minute to reach half scale from rest - !!

Next I calculated that to imitate a 14.5 volt supply using my 12 volt battery I needed to use a value of about R= 50.  That produced a surprisingly big swing towards the top end of the scale and nearly 3 volts on the gauge.  That means the gauge resistance had jumped to about 16.5 ohms

It seems the value I was assuming in my earlier post for the gauge full scale and temp. sender resistances was incorrect, but not too far out.

What is evident is the gauge responds quite a lot more in the top half of the scale which is due to the ratio of the gauge resisistance to R going up more quickly - probably then I had actually simulated more like about 15 volts if R = 65 (as I had assumed a lower value for gauge resistance).

So, on my gauage at least, and using a resistor in series of about 65 ohms, it is possible to make it work as a volt meter which begins to move at about 5 volts, reaches half scale at about 12 volts and which would move noticeably into the second half of the scale at 14.5 volts.  At 18 volts it would be right off the top of the scale.

The downside seems to be its somewhat lazy response time, but that would always be the problem using one of these gauges because of the way they work.  I can't see how any other system would make it move more quickly, although a system based on a pulsed 12v might move it a bit quicker maybe?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010 - 08:08:41 AM by UKcuda »
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Offline nqkjw

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Re: who makes a voltage gauge to replace amp gauge
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2010 - 09:37:38 PM »
I, too, am reading these posts and panicking a bit.

The amp gauge in my car works fine, far as I can tell.....I have an aftermarket voltage gauge installed alongside my external oil and water temp gauge...so I guess I dont need the amp gauge if its that damgerous.

But the questions in my brain right now:
- with the stock wiring, non A/C car, just an aftermarket in dash stereo/cd player, how great a risk is the gauge?
- is bolting the two leads together a reliable and safe way to go?   The MAD site referred to elsewhere shows a complete rewiring schematic and seesm to look at the meothod of bolting the two leads together and purely temporary.....

I have enough issues right now trying to figure out why car keeps dying out (I still have dash and starter power, so not relate to the amp gauge).....I do have a couple days of down time before my harness comes back from Bill Evans....should I make this change now or wait a while?


I had the same dying out problem with my 70 challenger when it first came out here from Knoxville.
Took me o long time to figure it out but it ended up being (shock,shudder)the ammeter!!!!
There was something loose inside (can't remember exactly what-something to do with the post connections internally)but I pulled it apart,cleaned and made sure everything was tight and no more problems after that.
The point being,this was definitely a case of a potential ugly situation(fire)just waiting to happen.

On the initial fire up after rebuild I DID have a wiring meltdown but the cause was me wiring a few things wrong.
Anyway,I had to strip the harness so while I was at it I deleted all the ammeter wiring and ran a new heavier charge wire.
I've also got a set of auxilliary guages fitted and they are working as well as the original oil pressure and water temp.I put auxilliary guages in all my old cars as I just don't trust 40 odd year old guages anymore.

Burnouts are cool but Traction is the Action

Offline shadango

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Re: who makes a voltage gauge to replace amp gauge
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2010 - 01:35:37 PM »
While I hate to say anything for fear of hexxing myswlf....LOL.....so far no more dying out once I replaced the ballast.

I am holding off on the ammeter/speedo swap for now till I am positive....plus have to work up the nerve to do it...LOL

Offline shadango

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Re: who makes a voltage gauge to replace amp gauge
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2010 - 07:56:20 AM »
So have we all decided the best route to go for a conversion?  Is $200 really the best way to go? Ouch.

Offline brads70

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Re: who makes a voltage gauge to replace amp gauge
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2010 - 08:01:02 AM »
So have we all decided the best route to go for a conversion?  Is $200 really the best way to go? Ouch.

It's for sure somewhat overpriced, but the car and the peace od mind is worth it?
I'm gonna get another amp gauge and send it to dashworks then pick it up at Carlisle if it all work out?
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0