440 advice

[Beck]

hey all,
the big race rebuild for my car may be put off till i have a bit more money, time, and dedication to pour into it.
in the mean time i'm toying with the idea of sticking a 440 in the car and having some summer fun.

here's a 440 for sale in the same town as me, for what seems to be a reasonable price.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts-accessories/Chrysler/Engines/auction-311078365.htm
would anyone knowledgeable in these matters care to have a look and perhaps let me know what
questions i should be asking the seller, and things i need to look out for. i'm still pretty green when it comes to
motor specifics.

cheers!
aaron

[Moparal]

Well, it's got heavy pistons and rods in it.  It doesnt say what compression or cam size meaning pump gas or race fuel, It doesnt say what valve size or year model block. No description what all has been done to the block as far as decking, hone plate, line hone, or even what type of bearings are in it.  What size crank journals mains and rods.   

[Beck]

cheers al,
i'll fire those questions at the guy.
i do know that the comp ratio is 10:1, and he also told me roughly the cam specs.
i'll get the exact details, then post them here.

cheers,
aaron

[Beck]

here's the specs:

the block is a 1975 and bored 030 thou some time ago so i had it measured at 002 thou max wear and more than acceptable to recieve a fresh hone.so this was done along with a main journal line hone.the block is fitted with new arp main studs and head studs.
the bearings are fully grooved items i don't remember what brand but they were quality at $500.the block was obviously hot tanked and got new frost plugs and cam bearings also.
the rods are forged factory 6 pak that were fitted with new arp bolts and re-sized.
the crank is also forged steel and has a fresh grind and measures 030 under size on the main and b end.
the pistons are forged trw flat tops.second hand good condition.with new chromemoly rings.the whole rotating assemble has been internally balanced at a cost of over $1000.
The cam is a new comp cam with matching anti pump lifters.
the specs are 525 lift.duration at 050 is 231 on the intake and 237 exhaust.the part no is 23-227-4 .
the heads are closed chamber 81cc,with stainless valves measuring 214 and 181 they have a very nice port done in the us.and have new guides and recut seats.double springs with new comp cam retainers and locks.
the compression ratio is 10.7:1.
the other parts are:
edelbrock electric water pump,new.
high volume oil pump,new.
fabricated alloy sump new
windage tray new
torker 2 alloy intake used
850 dp holley used
finned alloy edelbrock rocker covers used.
mopar performance electronic dizzy and 8mm eagle leads used.

what do you guys think?
cheers,
aaron

[Moparal]

Where do you live again?  It will need race fuel or 100 octane anyways. I didn't notice hardend exhaust seats. I am not sure about machine costs in your area. But as I said, it's a heavy rod/piston weight assembly and he has used pistons in it. you will need a stall converter for this engine if you use that cam, and will have marginal vaccum for power brakes. In my area in the states, for the price he's asking, in the states that would get you a lighter bob weight stroker with aluminum heads. 1600 dollar stroker kit, 1500 buck heads, gaskets and machine work.

Has the engine been tested?

[Beck]

i'm in new zealand,
and for the money it seems like a potentially good deal.
4 grand here normally only buys you a bog standard old 440 out of a motor home.
that's about 2800 bucks US.

things are much more expensive here unfortunately.
i'd love to get a motor from the states but the exchange rate + shipping would make it vastly more expensive...

i think the valve seats would definitely be hardened, that's standard procedure over here with our unleaded gas too.

it would be going in the car with a 4 speed behind it.
what rear gear ratio would you recommend? i was thinking of 3.55:1.

does the heavy piston and rod combo just slow the speed at which the motor revs?
limit high rpms? reduce life span?

and i was hoping to be able to run pump gas and if necessary octane booster.
we have good 98 octane fuel in most places.

the engine hasn't been run yet.

cheers for your help mate!
i think i will go have a look at the motor and see what deal i can get.

[Moparal]

Well the heavy weight is like spinning 60lbs in a circle, so the side loads are tremendous.  Big rod engines seem to spin more engine bearings. the crank is already cut 30.  You need to ask the guy if the crank was drilled for a 4 speed or was it an auto. If auto, they make a pilot bearing for the crank end, but you may have to snip the end of the input shaft on the trans.  The engine would prob make it on 98 octane easy enough. The cam is not a cruiser cam tho.  So ordering a kit from another country isnt an option?

[Beck]

it was originally planned for an auto.
does that mean modification to the crank is needed to mate with a four speed, or is the pilot bearing addition you mention alleviate this?

not after a cruisy motor, prefer something with a bit of bite.
i've done thousands of miles in the car as a great cruiser, now i'd like a bruiser for summer.

the rotating assembly has been internally balanced at quite a cost to the owner, would this lessen the likelihood of spun crank bearings?

i'm going to have a look at the motor tonight, is there anything specific i should check for visually?

cheers,
aaron

[Moparal]

Usually when balancing a big rod external engine and changing it into an internal balance engine, you would have to use mallory metal. And it should be drilled and filled on the side of the crank throughs not the bottoms. If it is an automatic crankshaft, then it probably isnt drilled deep enough to accept a 4 speed input shaft without cutting it down some.  This engine wont rev quick being heavy. Quicker revs achieve max hp / tq quicker. I really dont think you will like that cam, looks like an old design. And nothing special about those springs that match.  It's an old school build before better and lighter options were plentiful. A semi built up small block could hurt your feelings. It may be a solid built engine, just don't expect big time numbers from it. I myself think you will get bored with it and end up loosing money on it in the long run. Since you will start changing cams, intake, heads and other goodies trying to achieve a feeling that this 446 won't give you. It just won't be enough power for you.      WANNA BET?

[Beck]

cheers for your help al.

i'm not in any horsepower wars with anyone (yet), but am after a cheap (for NZ) solid 440 for some summer fun.
this motor is nearly complete and ready to go into my car, for a price that in NZ would barely buy you an old
stock motor home 440 and trans. for example:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts-accessories/Chrysler/Engines/auction-311207984.htm

as far as the cam goes, the specs are the same as this, and the part number slightly different (23-...  versus 21-...)
http://performanceparts.com/part.php?partID=247896

do you think it is the same cam or an old version, without the benefits listed in the above page?

if it's the same, it seems like a good enough option to me...

again i have to stress that this stuff is a lot more expensive over here, machining included,
and the cost of finding, vetting, shipping, and paying customs on a motor from the states is out of my price range.

i greatly appreciate your feedback and advice, but do you really feel that this isn't a good option for me, all things considered?

what sort of hp and torque numbers would you hazard at a guess?

cheers,
aaron

[Moparal]

21 vs 23 is the 21 series is a single bolt cam, 23 is the 3 bolt cam sprocket cam.   425-450 hp and about the same on tq   all at the flywheel.  It's basicly a 70 six pack stock build or close to it while changing the intake and cam. If built right, it should give you years of enjoyment, with the heavy duty parts.  If running headers, 1 7/8 will make the tune up better and work better on the bottom end tune up.  It's not a high reving engine.

Did the heads get valve guides installed?  Were they ported at a proffessional shop in the USA or bench ported?  Is this a new cam and lifters or pre run before?  Was the cam degreed in?  If it was built right, you will enjoy this engine (for a while)  but you will get tired of it sooner than later. HP is addicting and you are just 1 wrung on the ladder up over a stock 70 build.  So if the block has been set up correct, in the future you could go 55 over and build a lighter 499 cube without all the other major machine expense.  Best of luck to you, remember to check the back of the crank shaft since your running a stick car

[Beck]

well, i bought the motor last night!
the seller was a great guy and had some cool history for the block.

the cam is a new 3 bolt comp cams stick, the heads have been fully rebuilt by a reputable shop here at great cost by the owner, and valve guides were installed.
new lifters.

the port job was done earlier in the states, not sure who did it but it looks like a really nice job.

not sure about whether the cam was degreed in or not, will check.

and to be honest this motor is a stop gap between the tired 318 i have now and the hot 440sb i want in the race build i plan for the future for this car.
as long as this motor gives me some summer fun and skids, with the potential to last years if needed, then i'm happy. very happy actually!

soon i'll finally be able to answer in the affirmative when everyone asks if my car has "got a 440 in it?"

cheers,
aaron