Author Topic: Ok I'm getting REALLY sick of poor handling . What do you think about this? (Read 16499 times)

brads70 · « **on:** August 21, 2010 - 11:41:30 PM »

As much as I love my Challenger......the handling is horrible! My 05 Suburban handles better! ..and I just can't live with that!
I'm not looking at Auto crossing or anything, I just want a more confident feeling when I get into a corner and get into the throttle! It would be great if it could handle like a modern sports car ?
I bought new Espo springs ( plus 1 1/2" ) already so I'm not planning on replacing them anytime soon. I know they are not optimum for handling but I wanted the stance/rake. I have 1" T-bars installed and new stock replacement shocks.
I'm looking pretty hard at Hotchkis tubular uppers,front and rear sway bars and RCD Shocks.
Anyone running this stuff?
Are the uppers really worth the money? Or should I just install new bushings in my stock uppers? ( offset Moog if nessesary to get the caster?) They look like a pain in the butt to align as you have to disassemble everything to adjust. Does the relocated mounting point make a huge difference?
The sway bars are attractive to me because they are hollow and weight less than others? Having a 440 I'm looking at getting all the weight off the nose that I can!
I have read on here how some think the rear bar that attaches to the rear end is not as good as the stock set up? I like the Hotchkis set up because I have already installed the magnaflow stainless exhaust kit and don't want to redo it as it might interfear with a stock style set up? That and again the light weight, and it's adjustable.
I have read on here good things about the RCD shocks too?
Anyone on here have any advice?
Anyone screaming "NO DON'T DO IT"?

MEK-Dangerfield · « **Reply #1 on:** August 22, 2010 - 03:53:55 AM »

Brad,

Do you have any sway bars on there now?

thedodgeboys · « **Reply #2 on:** August 22, 2010 - 05:55:53 AM »

My

call hotchkis tell them what you want.

If I were running stock front end stuff I would upgrade it to all hotchkis stuff shocks and all.

brads70 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 22, 2010 - 07:14:57 AM »

Quote from: MEK-Dangerfield on August 22, 2010 - 03:53:55 AM

Brad,

Do you have any sway bars on there now?

Yes a stock bar up front. Not sure on the size though?
( there is 2 sizes from the factory right?) My car was originally a 6 cyl. I did add the torque boxes and subframe connectors.

dodj · « **Reply #4 on:** August 22, 2010 - 07:59:35 AM »

My

Front sway bar - 1 1/8
Rear Sway bay 3/4
Tubular uppers not worth the $ - cool though, I'd use them if $ not too tight.
Good shocks make a LOT of difference - a very under rated and often overlooked part.

And if there's an extra grand or so lying around

Aluminium heads, water pump - I know, lots of cash, but it would make a significant weight difference.

thedodgeboys · « **Reply #5 on:** August 22, 2010 - 09:34:05 AM »

I have to disagree about the new upper a arms the new ones will correct the 40 year old factory compromise on aliment specs.
A good alignment shop will allow you to take full advantage of the new adjustments so don't settle for them using factory specs.

Your steering box may be in need of a little work to tighten it up

Tires also add into the overall picture of handling, do you have good quality radial tires?

IMHO

Strawdawg · « **Reply #6 on:** August 22, 2010 - 10:33:39 AM »

I think one can get 95% of the daily driving handling from a judicious selection of parts as compared to Hotchkis or XV for a lot less money. Notice I said daily driving as opposed to Autocross.

Hp2, and others, have posted on the subject before. This was a pretty interesting thread. http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=68667.0

Assuming that bushings are good, decent tb's are installed, and properly sized sway bars, are on the car, then major improvements in handling will come from the tires and shocks. That means no crappy BFG T/As and Monroe shocks.

If the upper arms will not allow a proper alignment with the specs posted here numerous times, then there is a reason to buy new uppers.

IMNCARN82 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 22, 2010 - 11:19:48 AM »

I agree with HP2 and Strawdawg. These cars respond to tires and shocks first. Sways are a must.Got frame connectors all over? 440's aren't known for their handling.

Firm feel box? What's it doing that has you lifting? These things never handle like a skyline. Tires tires tires...

autoxcuda · « **Reply #8 on:** August 22, 2010 - 11:55:29 AM »

Quote from: brads70 on August 21, 2010 - 11:41:30 PM

...I'm looking pretty hard at Hotchkis tubular uppers,front and rear sway bars and RCD Shocks. Anyone running this stuff?

I just put on all the Hotchkis TVS stuff. And I already had very "judicious selection of parts": big aftermarket front and rear sway bars, moog offset upper control arm bushings, kyb's and a little stiffer T-bars with small block, better tires, aggressive alignment...
It was still a big difference. The shocks were great. The car feels much more precise. It used be squirrely when I ran it real hard.

Quote

Are the uppers really worth the money? Or should I just install new bushings in my stock uppers? ( offset Moog if necessary to get the caster?) They look like a pain in the butt to align as you have to disassemble everything to adjust. Does the relocated mounting point make a huge difference?

They are not a pain in the butt to align. I was thier 4 feet away from the guy aligning mine taking pictures of the whole thing. Just like I do for all my alignments.

You do not have to disassemble the Hotchkis A-arms for the alignment adjustments. Total misconception. The car uses the factory alignment cams for regular alignment adjustment. The instructions give you the specs the adjustable part of the A-arm�s should be set at before you install them (packaged set, you just recheck them). And they tell you what front and rear spacers to use where the A-arms attached the factory cam bolts. Then just align the car as normal, BUT you will probably be able to get up to 5 degrees positive caster and 1.5 negative camber. That's pretty aggressive. Any more aggressive numbers you want, the instructions tell you what shims to assemble the arms with prior to alignment.

The relocated point greatly reduces the bump steer they measured in these B/E bodies. Short of that, the ONLY way to adjust bump steer is to buy/make a bump steer gauge then shim the tie rods up or down or shim the steering box and slot/reweld the idler arm holes on the K-frame. The second method moves the center up or down and may run into header clearance issues. You can also measure it on an alignment rack, but very tough get/pay the time on the rack to make adjustments.

My car. A-bodies don't have the bump steer issue needed in geometry corrected A-arms.

autoxcuda · « **Reply #9 on:** August 22, 2010 - 12:13:31 PM »

Quote

The sway bars are attractive to me because they are hollow and weight less than others? Having a 440 I'm looking at getting all the weight off the nose that I can!
I have read on here how some think the rear bar that attaches to the rear end is not as good as the stock set up? I like the Hotchkis set up because I have already installed the magnaflow stainless exhaust kit and don't want to redo it as it might interfear with a stock style set up? That and again the light weight, and it's adjustable.

The rear Hotchkis sway bar very lightweight. I can hold the rear sway bar with my pinky finger. Only � the bar is unsprung. The dog bone type end links are much better than stock. They allow for free movement up and down without the binding and resistance of the traditional donut type poly end links

Quote

I have read on here good things about the RCD shocks too? .

Excellent. I�ve run about everything else; Koni, Kyb, Herb Adams, QA1.
I just put on mondo big 1.14 T-bars (equivalent to 1.18 E-body) And I was really really worried about the ride I was going to get. But with the Hotchkis shocks, the ride was better and sometime same as the much smaller .99� t-bars. I was surprised.

Quote

Anyone on here have any advice?
Anyone screaming "NO DON'T DO IT"?

I�d consider a little bigger T-bars. Like 1.06. But if you got those on the $200 special they were running, tough to beat that price.

brads70 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 22, 2010 - 10:27:30 PM »

Quote from: dodj on August 22, 2010 - 07:59:35 AM

My
Front sway bar - 1 1/8
Rear Sway bay 3/4
Tubular uppers not worth the $ - cool though, I'd use them if $ not too tight.
Good shocks make a LOT of difference - a very under rated and often overlooked part.

And if there's an extra grand or so lying around
Aluminium heads, water pump - I know, lots of cash, but it would make a significant weight difference.

Thanks for the reply's! ( everyone!)
I'm working on a pair of Mopar Stage 6 heads I have now( they are aluminum) and a 400 stroker build up-collecting parts still

...I have the aluminum water pump ,intake, and rad now. I plan on moving the battery to the trunk over the winter as well. If possible I'd like to try and make my BB the same weight as a all cast iron SB? Or as close as I can get...?

brads70 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 22, 2010 - 11:02:42 PM »

Quote from: thedodgeboys on August 22, 2010 - 09:34:05 AM

I have to disagree about the new upper a arms the new ones will correct the 40 year old factory compromise on aliment specs.
A good alignment shop will allow you to take full advantage of the new adjustments so don't settle for them using factory specs.

Your steering box may be in need of a little work to tighten it up
Tires also add into the overall picture of handling, do you have good quality radial tires?

IMHO

I did tighten up the steering box a little. I know the BFG T/A suck for handling I went with firestones as I have 15" rims and the selection of good rubber for 15" rims is not that great

They do hook OK ? Not a drag radial my any stretch of the imagination! But for the money they are OK.

I have the exact same tires and sizes on my Buick so I know it's not the tires ( sure stickier tires would always be better...)
The car pushes like a dump truck when I go hard into the corners. Ya I know some of the problem is the BB but I'm sure with all the aftermarket goodies, and 40 years of technology improvements, it CAN be better!
I do find the steering too slow and I'd like to get the pitman and idler arms from firm feel at some point too. I wish a power box was available with a quicker ratio!

Seem's like an excellent business opourtunity for someone in the aftermarket world!

HINT HINT!!!
I have had GM's for the last 20 years and got spoiled with handling and all the stuff that is available for them. I have a 12:1 box, big sway bars etc... in my Buick and even with the BB Buick in there it handles way better than the Challenger. Mind you a BB Buick does weigh less than a BB Mopar...
I just love the torque of the 440 and how easily it pulls away from traffic but so far I just don't feel confident doing that in the corners....yet!

brads70 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 23, 2010 - 12:24:17 AM »

Quote from: autoxcuda on August 22, 2010 - 11:55:29 AM

They are not a pain in the butt to align. I was thier 4 feet away from the guy aligning mine taking pictures of the whole thing. Just like I do for all my alignments.

You do not have to disassemble the Hotchkis A-arms for the alignment adjustments. Total misconception. The car uses the factory alignment cams for regular alignment adjustment. The instructions give you the specs the adjustable part of the A-arm�s should be set at before you install them (packaged set, you just recheck them). And they tell you what front and rear spacers to use where the A-arms attached the factory cam bolts. Then just align the car as normal, BUT you will probably be able to get up to 5 degrees positive caster and 1.5 negative camber. That's pretty aggressive. Any more aggressive numbers you want, the instructions tell you what shims to assemble the arms with prior to alignment.

Are you sure about that? Just reading Hotchkis instructions
, http://www.hotchkis.net/_uploaded_files/1110instructions158file.pdf
and it says...
Install A-Arm Relocators
Slide the stock camber bolt w/washer through the top hole of the A-Arm
Relocator. The other end will end up inside the engine bay. Install the washer
and nut snugly, but do not fully tighten. You will need to induce some preload
to position the Relocator properly. You can do this by rotating the camber bolt
clock wise until you feel resistance. The Relocator should position itself snugly
onto the frame. Fully tighten the camber bolt by tightening the nut side keeping
the bolt static.

...So I would think only the rear cam bolt could be used for setting the alignment as the front one is "busy" holding the relocators in position? No?

autoxcuda · « **Reply #13 on:** August 23, 2010 - 02:18:24 AM »

Quote from: brads70 on August 23, 2010 - 12:24:17 AM

....

...So I would think only the rear cam bolt could be used for setting the alignment as the front one is "busy" holding the relocators in position? No?

I'm sorry, you are right rear cams only. My A-body one are different.

There is still cam adjustment. Just rear only.

autoxcuda · « **Reply #14 on:** August 23, 2010 - 03:04:24 AM »

Your current setup is extremely similar to the Blue 70 Challenger 440 auto car test car they did. That car is an A/C car too, just doesn�t have the compressor on it. So it�s heavy.

Before:
1" t-bars
factory front sway bar
No rear sway bar
Hotchkis subframe connectors (too hard to weld in at the track)
M.Perf. HD rear leaf spring 3 years old
KYB shocks
15x8 steel rims 245/60/15 tires.

After:
Hotchkis TVS system: rear leafs, shocks, A-arms, strut rods, front and rear sway bars, frame connectors�

Found these pictures on the net.

Before

After

Author Topic: Ok I'm getting REALLY sick of poor handling . What do you think about this? (Read 16499 times)

brads70

Ok I'm getting REALLY sick of poor handling . What do you think about this?

MEK-Dangerfield

Re: Ok I'm getting REALLY sick of poor handling . What do you think about this?

thedodgeboys

Re: Ok I'm getting REALLY sick of poor handling . What do you think about this?

brads70

Re: Ok I'm getting REALLY sick of poor handling . What do you think about this?

dodj

Re: Ok I'm getting REALLY sick of poor handling . What do you think about this?

thedodgeboys

Re: Ok I'm getting REALLY sick of poor handling . What do you think about this?

Strawdawg

Re: Ok I'm getting REALLY sick of poor handling . What do you think about this?

IMNCARN82

Re: Ok I'm getting REALLY sick of poor handling . What do you think about this?

autoxcuda

Re: Ok I'm getting REALLY sick of poor handling . What do you think about this?

autoxcuda

Re: Ok I'm getting REALLY sick of poor handling . What do you think about this?

brads70

Re: Ok I'm getting REALLY sick of poor handling . What do you think about this?

brads70

Re: Ok I'm getting REALLY sick of poor handling . What do you think about this?

brads70

Re: Ok I'm getting REALLY sick of poor handling . What do you think about this?

autoxcuda

Re: Ok I'm getting REALLY sick of poor handling . What do you think about this?

autoxcuda

Re: Ok I'm getting REALLY sick of poor handling . What do you think about this?