Ok I'm getting REALLY sick of poor handling . What do you think about this?

Author Topic: Ok I'm getting REALLY sick of poor handling . What do you think about this?  (Read 16501 times)

Offline HP2

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Not much more I can add that hasn't already been thrown out here.

Just to base line, do you have a modified alignment and not the stock stuff? Easy change here that can net divides over the original specs. Sub-frame conenctors or torque boxes? If the body is moving around, changes to the suspension never help as much.

Your stock front sway bar is likely a .875, so stepping up to the Hotchkis sway bar set front and rear will probably be a huge gain for you. After that you can decide if the extra coin is worth chasing down the a-arms and tie rods.




Offline TreeFrog

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good info!
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Offline brads70

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Not much more I can add that hasn't already been thrown out here.

Just to base line, do you have a modified alignment and not the stock stuff? Easy change here that can net divides over the original specs. Sub-frame conenctors or torque boxes? If the body is moving around, changes to the suspension never help as much.

Your stock front sway bar is likely a .875, so stepping up to the Hotchkis sway bar set front and rear will probably be a huge gain for you. After that you can decide if the extra coin is worth chasing down the a-arms and tie rods.

I have both subframe connectors and the torque boxes. I have no idea what the alignment is set at. It goes down the road really straight though.
I'm thinking I will pull the trigger on the uppers,sway bars,and shocks from Hotchkis. Sometime between now and next spring. Just waiting on a price from a e-bay seller .
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline dodj

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I have to disagree about the new upper a arms the new ones will correct the 40 year old factory compromise on aliment specs.
A good alignment shop will allow you to take full advantage of the new adjustments so don't settle for them using factory specs.
The website lists them at $770 for the pair. Just seems like a lotta cash to me. I'd go with the offset Moogs. Maybe I'm just cheap?  ;D
Scott
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Offline brads70

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They are cheaper on e-bay $645 still crazy but......
sway bars are $534 and shocks are $400
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010 - 10:54:56 PM by brads70 »
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline Bullitt-

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Before I dropped that kind of coin on piecemeal I'd have to consider the getting the whole shebang K-frame w/rack  :2cents:
Wade  73 Rallye 340..'77 Millennium Falcon...13 R/T Classic   Huntsville, AL
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Offline brads70

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$1580 total for a car that should be like a new car handling wise...ya it's expensive but I can't live with what I have now.
Firm feel sways bars are $645 PLUS shipping. E-bay seller has free shipping. With the shocks....you do get what you pay for. I do know that from stock car racing!
It's the price of the a-arms that's making me stop and think harder? Still undecided? I'm not sold on the use of rod ends on the street. Will they "click" and be noisy, now or when they wear? How long will they last on the street? I have used Teflon coated races rod ends for a short time on the street with no issues. Are they just regular rod ends so one could replace them at some point? What grade are they?
.... but I like that they seemed to have done their homework with the mount relocation? The question with that is have they REALLY found an improvement or is it just a sales pitch? I also like the bracing better on the Hotchkis a arms better?
Sure the k-frame replacement with the rack would be OK but that in itself won't make it handle , and it will cost much more I would think? After seeing pictures of the Cap a-arms breaking , and the tubular k-frame....I don't think I would risk it? Just my  :2cents:
Ahhh decisions decisions....
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline autoxcuda

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...
It's the price of the a-arms that's making me stop and think harder? Still undecided? I'm not sold on the use of rod ends on the street. Will they "click" and be noisy, now or when they wear? How long will they last on the street? I have used Teflon coated races rod ends for a short time on the street with no issues. Are they just regular rod ends so one could replace them at some point? What grade are they?

I've only have the TVS system in for a month. No additional squeaks or pops. In the winter time with the car in the garage with moisture, i'd wipe the spericals with a good rust/lubricant (not WD40)

Quote
.... but I like that they seemed to have done their homework with the mount relocation? The question with that is have they REALLY found an improvement or is it just a sales pitch? I also like the bracing better on the Hotchkis a arms better?
Sure the k-frame replacement with the rack would be OK but that in itself won't make it handle , and it will cost much more I would think? After seeing pictures of the Cap a-arms breaking , and the tubular k-frame....I don't think I would risk it? Just my  :2cents:
Ahhh decisions decisions....

The video online shows why how they found the bump steer in the original Challenger design. It makes since. Those cars have a lot of anti dive. The same geometry and anti dive was used in a 108" wheelbase Hemi Cuda and a 121" 318 Coronet Crestwood station wagon. If you look at old stock car design books for rwd chassis they suggest taking anti dive out of the cars. The anti dive is contributing to the bump steer.

At the Musclecar Challenge they did in Michigan the Hotchkis car place way ahead of the XV level I and II cars. Place top 4 road course and top 2 autocross. The other cars were big dollar full customs Camaro's with fabbed front and rear clips. The G-Max Challenger was spotting most of them over 150 HP!. Winning car was a Steilow built Camaro with tweaked on LS9 supercharged motor (~700hp!!). The G-Max Challlenger runs 13.6 quarters (under 400HP)
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Offline thedodgeboys

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They are cheaper on e-bay $645 still crazy but......
sway bars are $534 and shocks are $400


Summit racing has them for $655.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HSS-1110/

I would call hotchkis maybe you'll get lucky and they will make you a deal or have a blemish color that would save byou some money.

I have 3.5k in my new k frame with coil over shocks after powder coating and stuff 
:22yikes: but I would never trade it for stock

 
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Offline torredcuda

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Get the fast ratio arms-
http://firmfeel.com/fastrati.htm
Jeff
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Offline HP2

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That's why I suggested you start with a pretty simple baseline of s-bars, see if it provides the results you want, then maybe down the line step up to the control arms. Then you can get a feel for the incremental improvements

Interstingly enough, I actually toyed around with the relocated upper control arms about ten years ago on a  pavement street stock. The improvement was pretty decent, until tech got wind of it and made me change them back to stock. I used a short, I think it wqs inthe range of 7", offset ball joint, chevy style that mounted in a pad that hung off the side of the frame rail. Camber and caster were never a problem as I could get huge amounts of either. The shorter upper arm also created a greater camber gain curve as well over the stock units, although it wasn't needed as badly because of reduced body roll that came with mondo t bars and s bars. I seem to recall the net cost was around $60-75 and half a day on a mill.

Another item we toyed around with were chrome moly, tubular strut rods with a chevy ball joint on one end. These would bolt to the K frame with the ball joint with a fabricated tapered end on the control arm. This eliminated a lot of the braking compression a bushing sees in that application and now you see similar designs marketed for big dollars. Another low buck deal that I think was under $50 total. Heck, I was just trying to go faster and never thought any of these things had a market for them. Really, ten to fifteen years ago, you could rarely find a mopar guy who wanted handling unless it would reduce their e.t. at the strip.

Offline brads70

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Get the fast ratio arms-
http://firmfeel.com/fastrati.htm

 :iagree:  Yep, they have been on my "radar" and are on my list. I even bought headers that they say will fit with them thinking somewhere down the road I'll get them. I'm thinking someone HAS to come up with a 12:1 power steering box  soon? It's a missing link in the Mopar puzzle! I know as soon as I buy the firm feel arms, within a month someone will come out with one! :smilielol:   That's just my luck! :bigsmile:
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010 - 12:06:51 PM by brads70 »
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline Bullitt-

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If quicker steering is the big thing your trying to fix have you given up on the steering quickener?

http://stockcarproducts.com/steer4.htm
Wade  73 Rallye 340..'77 Millennium Falcon...13 R/T Classic   Huntsville, AL
Screwed by Photobucket!

Offline Chryco Psycho

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Talk to Hotchkiss directly , they offered me a decent discount buying direct from them

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Offline brads70

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If quicker steering is the big thing your trying to fix have you given up on the steering quickener?

http://stockcarproducts.com/steer4.htm


I didn't want to hack up the steering column , and build mounts etc....
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0