Author Topic: Would dropped spindles help handling?  (Read 45228 times)

Offline brads70

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 18747
Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #75 on: December 05, 2010 - 02:51:07 PM »
I initially wondered how flipping the outer tie rod end would change things, but I haven't played with that yet to see. However, to do that in the real world would require mods to the steering arms, which would ralistically mean custom arms and then drive a change in ball joints. Feasible, but a lot of work for a street car.

Recheck the bump, it is .2 in 3" of shock travel.This program doesn't display the motion ratio from shock travel to wheel travel in the tables, but it does ask for it in the set up. I haven't verified on the car, but 3" of shock travel is probably close to 4.5-5" of wheel travel, or a more than most cars will ever see and a butt load more thana  car with 1.0" sized bars will ever have. I did chose a large range just to help illustrate the change. In reality, a car with big t-bars may only roll over 1.75-2.25 of wheel travel, or around 1.2 worth of shock travel, roughly half of the model I ran, which means in practical application, bump would likely be under an eighth, with the possibility of dialing in less with the end spacers popular in most competition catalogs.


To flip it I was thinking of drilling/milling a hole where the tie rod goes then making a "hat" that has the tie rod taper in it , and a washer on the other side. Then you could flip it in either way.( on top or below the steering arm) Failing that, I noticed  that Mopar Moog 7025( not sure if the taper is the same as an e-body?) is a press in style ball joint . Making a ball joint " holder with removable steering arms is "do-able"?

Ah I didn't catch that it was shock travel... it's hard to see( it's in purple) but doesn't it read in -3" of shock travel .400" bump steer? Maybe I'm reading it wrong?
I haven't worked much on Mopar suspensions but, on GM chassis stock cars I've worked on it's not unusual to see .500" of bump steer before things are "improved"
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0




Offline HP2

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 4478
Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #76 on: December 05, 2010 - 03:55:00 PM »
What is affected when the front spring eye is moved up in its mounting location, which effectively lowers the back of the car.

Not sure exactly. This program is exclusive to the front end and doesn't do an rear geometry nor a whole car analysis. Off hand, I'd say spring eye relocation will alter anti-squat characteristics and change rear roll center heights. The overall lowering may impact the relative positions of some of the front component pick up points as well, althought their changes would tend to be very minor.

To flip it I was thinking of drilling/milling a hole where the tie rod goes then making a "hat" that has the tie rod taper in it , and a washer on the other side. Then you could flip it in either way.( on top or below the steering arm) Failing that, I noticed  that Mopar Moog 7025( not sure if the taper is the same as an e-body?) is a press in style ball joint . Making a ball joint " holder with removable steering arms is "do-able"?

Yes, very "do-able" and actually prefered in serious competition applications. Dick Ross at Firm Feel as created these parts in a kit car style front stub he built. There was a thread on it over on moparts this past summer. Since he fabbed them up initially, I'd say he has the program/parameters to duplicate it again. Probably a bit pricey for those of us without a mill, but probably purchasable, and a defininite for someone with the tools. Fabricated steering arms also means you can alter that ratio to create more or less steering angle as well.

Ah I didn't catch that it was shock travel... it's hard to see( it's in purple) but doesn't it read in -3" of shock travel .400" bump steer? Maybe I'm reading it wrong?
I haven't worked much on Mopar suspensions but, on GM chassis stock cars I've worked on it's not unusual to see .500" of bump steer before things are "improved"

Yeah, not all the colors in the grid are easy to see, and if you throw too many of them up at once, it gets tought to see. However, It isn't as bad on a 19" monitor as it is in a snap shot shrunk to fit a photobucket format.

Running through iterations of this certainly does get one thinking about alterations to upper control arm mounting points and seeing how big an influence they can have to correcting angles and improving the tire contact patch.

Offline brads70

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 18747
Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #77 on: December 05, 2010 - 05:42:15 PM »
I wonder if your program could give the best position ( with dimensions) to put the tie rod end on the steering arm? :naughty: Is the program in 3D? Same with the center link? On the GM chassis we move it, usually up, and/or modify it's position with the idler and pitman arms.
I'm just thinking on a Mopar making a center link is quite easy! :thinkerg:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline brads70

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 18747
Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #78 on: December 28, 2010 - 10:37:43 PM »
I started a new post with my C-Body spindle experiment?
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline 73restomod

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 528
Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #79 on: December 31, 2010 - 07:32:28 PM »
There are so many varibles here. One that i think was missed thou is the relationship of the Roll Center height to the CoG? How do the drop spindles affect Scrub Radius?

Generally the the closer together the CoG is to the RCH the less roll angle the car will experience, the more you raise the RCH it will tend to cause a jacking effect which will nuke a mopars caster gain in a corner, so preferably you would want to lower your CoG if possible, to get a tighter distance. So my question is do the Drop spindles drop the CoG without significantly raising the RCH? If so then they would help handling.

Next question does the raising of the axle centerline along the kingpin inclination angle effectively change the distance to the centerline of the wheel. If it does it would reduce the scrub radius, which reduces the twisting forces that the tires exert on the steering, which will make the car feel more controlled with reduced steering effort.

Any thoughts?


« Last Edit: December 31, 2010 - 07:36:11 PM by 73restomod »

Offline 72bluNblu

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1836
Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #80 on: January 03, 2011 - 10:31:10 PM »
There are so many varibles here. One that i think was missed thou is the relationship of the Roll Center height to the CoG? How do the drop spindles affect Scrub Radius?

Generally the the closer together the CoG is to the RCH the less roll angle the car will experience, the more you raise the RCH it will tend to cause a jacking effect which will nuke a mopars caster gain in a corner, so preferably you would want to lower your CoG if possible, to get a tighter distance. So my question is do the Drop spindles drop the CoG without significantly raising the RCH? If so then they would help handling.

Next question does the raising of the axle centerline along the kingpin inclination angle effectively change the distance to the centerline of the wheel. If it does it would reduce the scrub radius, which reduces the twisting forces that the tires exert on the steering, which will make the car feel more controlled with reduced steering effort.

Any thoughts?

This was actually already covered somewhat. Lowering the COG is obviously pretty important. But, the drop spindles DO raise the roll center of the car. The bottom line is if you can get your car lower without the drop spindles, you'd be better off. Now, if you can't get the car low enough with the stock spindles (due to larger torsion bars), then you have to look at the trade off between the COG and RCH. Since I originally used my drop spindles to lower my car a full 2", I would say that, on the street at least, I thought the car handled better than when it was 2" higher, despite the raised RCH. But that's just "seat of the pants" testing on the street, not a definitive answer by any means. And, if you aren't lowering the car the full 2", I think the negative effect of raising in RCH will overcome the lowering of the COG. You also have the issue of bump steer.

There are other means of lowering the car. Most torsion bars are offset 30 degrees for preload. However, this isn't really needed once the torsion bar is 1" or more in diameter. The old circle track guys used to clock the torsion bar anchors 30* to achieve a 0 offset setup, but that requires cutting the anchors out and re-welding them. Just Suspension also made a 0 offset bar for awhile, I think it was 1.06", but they no longer make that one unfortunately.

The other way to do this is to install the LCA's at something other than full travel, thereby clocking the LCA's. But since the torsion bars have hex ends, I believe this changes the offset by 60*, so, you wouldn't have a zero offset, you'd actually have a -30* offset, or 30* in the opposite direction from stock. Depending on the size of the torsion bar, that may not give you enough ride height. But I may be wrong about that one, maybe HP2 will chime in and correct me if I'm mistaken.

Offline brads70

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 18747
Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #81 on: January 04, 2011 - 07:56:00 AM »
There is some talk of the Magnum force spindle not being as strong as the stock Mopar spindle to?
http://www.protouringmopar.com/showthread.php?423-Good-read
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline 71cudajoe

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 374
    • 71 Cuda Restoration Project
Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #82 on: January 04, 2011 - 09:34:17 AM »
There is some talk of the Magnum force spindle not being as strong as the stock Mopar spindle to?
http://www.protouringmopar.com/showthread.php?423-Good-read


Hmmm. I have a set of the MF dropped spindles on my 'cuda. I don't like to hear that they are not as strong as a stock spindle, but I'm guessing that I won't have much to worry about since I won't be driving the car on any sort of track. I built the car for cruising to weekend car shows and events.
David - '71 HEMI Cuda Retro-mod
FOR PICS VISIT www.71cuda.net

Offline autoxcuda

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 572
    • Spring Fling
Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #83 on: January 04, 2011 - 11:32:26 AM »
Hmmm. I have a set of the MF dropped spindles on my 'cuda. I don't like to hear that they are not as strong as a stock spindle, but I'm guessing that I won't have much to worry about since I won't be driving the car on any sort of track. I built the car for cruising to weekend car shows and events.

I haven't seen the MA article. But it seems a little out there. Did they just hammer a corner of it with a sledge? or did they put it in a stress/strain test rig where you can measure the exact force at the breaking point. The forces should go thorugh the actual axle spindle and the lower and/or upper ball joints on the other side.
Spring Fling XXX
April 22 & 23 2016

at Woodley Park Van Nuys, CA.
Special 30th Anniversary Event!
600+ Mopars, 300+ swappers,  50+ manf. midways.
Thrus: Mopar Track Day at Willow Springs Raceway
Fri: Caravan & Cruise
Sat: Mopar Cruise-In

Offline 72bluNblu

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1836
Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #84 on: January 04, 2011 - 03:13:53 PM »
I'll have to take a look at the article on the Magnumforce spindles. I personally find it hard to believe that they aren't as strong as stock, given that they're forged. They might be harder, and therefore fracture more easily (ie, if they just used a hammer test), but compared to a stock spindle they look a hell of a lot stronger.


Offline HP2

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 4478
Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #85 on: January 05, 2011 - 10:00:47 AM »

The other way to do this is to install the LCA's at something other than full travel, thereby clocking the LCA's. But since the torsion bars have hex ends, I believe this changes the offset by 60*, so, you wouldn't have a zero offset, you'd actually have a -30* offset, or 30* in the opposite direction from stock. Depending on the size of the torsion bar, that may not give you enough ride height. But I may be wrong about that one, maybe HP2 will chime in and correct me if I'm mistaken.

Your correct in that premise. The actual amount may be less than -30*, but that depends on the t-bar. Many larger sizes change clocking all together so there is no right or left bar and that will influence how that offset occurs. Additionally, with higher rate bars the movement beceoms somewhat restricted so the actual travel required vs what is available can vary widely as well.

Yes, we did talk a bit about the fact that dropping 60% of 3400 pounds down 1.5-2" proably provides a greater benefit than the geometry changes that occur create a problem, so the net result is an improvement even though the geometry is not optimal. Even with that, the results are still much better than what i've seen in other makes of cars, so it still sin't a bad thing.

Scrub radius does improve somewhat with the drop, all things being equal, but can be manipulated with wheel offsets.


Offline brads70

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 18747
Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #86 on: January 07, 2011 - 10:24:36 PM »
I haven't seen the MA article. But it seems a little out there. Did they just hammer a corner of it with a sledge? or did they put it in a stress/strain test rig where you can measure the exact force at the breaking point. The forces should go thorugh the actual axle spindle and the lower and/or upper ball joints on the other side.

I just bought the new Mopar Action magazine just to read that article. Hummm not a very scientific way to test a spindle?  They put the threaded tip of the spindle pin in a vice then hammer on it with a sledge hammer? REALLY?  ::) If I had those spindles I don't think I would worry to much about it breaking off the end of the spindle?  :grinno:
 In my opinion the weakest part of that spindle looks to be around where the ball joint bolts on. It's thinner than the stock part with no webbing between them to support it like the stock part? ( the part were the flat head socket head cap screws go through).
I did find that article very interesting about using 73 and later B-Body LCA's! They allow more suspension travel than the stock set up. I have a buddy that uses them on a stock car (71 Charger) but says they add about an inch per side to the track width?  Anyone have a set laying around to measure the length? To confirm this?
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline 72bluNblu

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1836
Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #87 on: January 11, 2011 - 08:42:12 PM »
I just bought the new Mopar Action magazine just to read that article. Hummm not a very scientific way to test a spindle?  They put the threaded tip of the spindle pin in a vice then hammer on it with a sledge hammer? REALLY?  ::) If I had those spindles I don't think I would worry to much about it breaking off the end of the spindle?  :grinno:
 In my opinion the weakest part of that spindle looks to be around where the ball joint bolts on. It's thinner than the stock part with no webbing between them to support it like the stock part? ( the part were the flat head socket head cap screws go through).
I did find that article very interesting about using 73 and later B-Body LCA's! They allow more suspension travel than the stock set up. I have a buddy that uses them on a stock car (71 Charger) but says they add about an inch per side to the track width?  Anyone have a set laying around to measure the length? To confirm this?

Just finished reading that article myself. The "testing" they did with a sledge hammer is laughable at best. It doesn't replicate in any way how forces are actually transmitted to the spindle, and there's absolutely nothing scientific about it. They have no information on the amount of force used, and can't account for repeatability. And of course, its not a representative test. Maybe that's what Magnumforce did (there's a youtube video) to demonstrate "to the masses" that their spindles don't break, but its a marketing technique only, not science.

In addition to the info on the '73 B body LCA's, I was interested in the info on the CAP LCA's. Both the testing they did and the geometry implications. Testing them in a press is a little more scientific, at least you have actual measured force results that you can compare to something, even if it doesn't exactly replicate actual loads. I was happy to see they had better results than the stock LCA's, especially given some of the things that have been said about CAP. Although, quality control may still be an issue with them, as the failures of UCA's they had were at welds.

The increased suspension travel is important too, especially for lowered cars. The fact that the CAP LCA's give an extra inch of suspension travel is a nice thing to know, especially if you're not using drop spindles. It also may help explain why I had to remove my fender braces. Since I have CAP LCA's on my car, I also have about an extra inch of vertical travel.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2011 - 12:31:31 AM by 72bluNblu »

Offline brads70

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 18747
Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #88 on: January 11, 2011 - 09:18:45 PM »
Ya the Cap Auto lowers look like stout pieces from that article! :2thumbs: I can see it helping you with the dropped spindles. I'll have to put some grease on the rubber stops and run the car hard through some turns and see if I'm into the bump stops. I doubt I am but ya never know with out checking.
I found out the 73 and up B-Body LCA's are 14" center to center ( Thanks Bigs!) so they won't work on a e-body without custom offset rims.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011 - 09:22:04 PM by brads70 »
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline Tom Quad

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 38
Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #89 on: January 23, 2011 - 06:08:46 AM »
The MA article leaves more ???? than answers...I see no bowing here to the author which is good. The integrity of those dropped spindles is questionable.

I am still perplexed by the dropped spindles and the need.

I have a lowered e body with no suspension travel issues or large t bar preload.
My car is low. 3.5 inches to the bottom of the stock side pipes....is that close enough to the ground??

Start with lowering the car in the rear by using the spring hangers that facilitate this. A backyard way to do this would to be elongated the mounting holes so you can flip the hanger as the bolt patter is not square. Now the rear of the car is lower and the now the front end must follow. BTW this will increase the caster  in a positive direction as you have rotated the top of the spindle towards the rear.  If you put dropped spindles on and raise the car...now think...the chassis would be now higher in the front than the rear when you raise the t bars.

I still believe that incorrect clocking on the t bars is the root cause for not enough preload on the t bars.  I have never run out of suspension travel flogging the road course... or on the street. I have been studying pics of my car on the track at speed and I cannot justify the need or use of dropped spindles to enhance the handling or lower the car.  I have years of pics so the change in handling is easily seen.

I have a 1970 Dodge Charger R/T going to the road course  in June 2011 set up similar to my E body. Lowered the proper way etc etc etc. It will be interesting for sure with the big fat heavy B Body in the turns.