Would dropped spindles help handling?

[72bluNblu]

Brad- you're following this right I think. The pivot locations on the frame will be in the same place, as the ride height of our cars is the same. But, the ball joints on my car will be lower. In theory, I would think 2" lower. That said, I don't think the geometry change will be as much an effect on handling as the COG of the car. So, whether or not you get the spindles is up to you, I'm not sure you'd notice the change in the handling if you keep the car at the same ride height.

But- changing the ride height with the adjusters does not significantly effect the preload on torsion bar. The adjusters don't twist the bars, they just change the angle of the lower control arm. That does change the amount of travel the suspension can go through though, the closer you put the lower control arm to the bump stop the less suspension travel you'll have. So, getting the drop spindles WILL effect that, since I would have more angle on my lower control arm I should also have more suspension travel. Now, that might not necessarily be a good thing. For example, if my wheel runs out of physical space before my suspension runs out of travel. Which might explain why I had to remove my inner fender braces already due to interference. The spring rate on my torsion bars may keep me from using all the possible travel anyway, I suspect I'd have to hit something pretty hard or put some serious lateral force on the car to completely overload that 270 lb/in rate.

HP2- I think I see what you're saying about the adjusters. I'll have to pull out a set of LCA's to look at them though. Realistically, I don't want to lower the car any more than I had it before. It's just too big of a PITA since my car is my daily driver. Maybe if I get a low profile floor jack so it'll actually go under the K when its lowered I can put up with the speed bumps when the arch is at 24". And the adjusters still have plenty of threads engaged, its just that the adjusters are nearly unloaded when the suspension is fully unloaded. But as long as there's some contact, ie, the adjuster arm doesn't come off the adjuster at full travel, it shouldn't be a problem.

[boydsdodge]

I went out to check, My car with no engine or trans, with 1.16 bars (DirectConnection Bars), 2" Magnum Force drop spindles, 245/60x15 sits at 24.75"
Yes it will improve handling because you can lower your car with out lowering the control arms to sit on the bumpers.

[boydsdodge]

72bluNblu How were your fenders after you removed the braces?

[72bluNblu]

I went out to check, My car with no engine or trans, with 1.16 bars (DirectConnection Bars), 2" Magnum Force drop spindles, 245/60x15 sits at 24.75"
Yes it will improve handling because you can lower your car with out lowering the control arms to sit on the bumpers.

Wow. That's a lot lower than I thought it would be without the engine. Especially considering your tires add a 1/2" to that number. So, with my tires, and no engine, your car would be at 24.25"?  So, that's lower than my car sits now, with an extra 650 lbs in the front, and smaller torsion bars?  I mean, with my adjusters set so there's just tension on them, I believe I recall my car sitting just under 24", but that's fully loaded. I must have buggered this up.

:Sigh:  I'm gonna have to pull my torsion bars.   

72bluNblu How were your fenders after you removed the braces?

Haven't noticed anything besides my tires not hitting the braces. 

And sorry about the measurements, its actually STILL pouring rain here in California. I'll get them soon. And I do agree with boydsdodge, as I mentioned before, you'll end up with more suspension travel with the drop spindles. And, in theory, better geometry. But I'm still not sure it would be a noticeable difference off the track, unless the suspension is bottoming out on the bump stops when you hit bumps or corner hard (or both).

[Strawdawg]

Do the dropped spindles affect the bump steer corrections built into the Hotchkis uppers?  Or is the main correction provided by the tie rod ends from Hotchkis?

[boydsdodge]

i have the Hotchkiss Tie rods and was advised against using them on the street by an old time Mopar builder after I showed some concern with them being able to hold up against street urban use.

[brads70]

i have the Hotchkiss Tie rods and was advised against using them on the street by an old time Mopar builder after I showed some concern with them being able to hold up against street urban use.

YA I think I would agree with that. You could get seal from "seals it" and Teflon lined aircraft quality tie rods but.....? On the race track, rod ends are a "consumable"
With the dropped spindles it then also lowers the tie rods by 2" ? Tie rod height is one of the ways to adjust bump steer. So I'm wondering if the dropped spindles will screw bump steer up worse?

"I went out to check, My car with no engine or trans, with 1.16 bars (DirectConnection Bars), 2" Magnum Force drop spindles, 245/60x15 sits at 24.75"
Yes it will improve handling because you can lower your car with out lowering the control arms to sit on the bumpers."
So your car is higher than mine then huh?   ( LOL I know...no engine etc..)

[cudazappa]

With the dropped spindles it then also lowers the tie rods by 2" ? Tie rod height is one of the ways to adjust bump steer. So I'm wondering if the dropped spindles will screw bump steer up worse?

dropped spindles have no effect on the tie rods.  that's part of the steering arm, which is attached to the spindle.  All the spindle is doing is moving the axis of the wheel, ball joints and other related hardware stay in the same locations.

[cudazappa]

Cast in one piece CP, they're great looking pieces. According to Magnumforce, they're over twice as strong as the originals.

Those be forgings, not castings.

[brads70]

dropped spindles have no effect on the tie rods.  that's part of the steering arm, which is attached to the spindle.  All the spindle is doing is moving the axis of the wheel, ball joints and other related hardware stay in the same locations.

I don't know...? if you imagine at the wheel on the ground the lower ball joint on a dropped spindle  is lower to the ground now ( 2"? ).( and so is the tie rod end, which is bolted to the steering arm that is part of the ball joint) which I'm thinking will mess with bumpsteer?  Also the upper ball joint is lower to the ground ( 2"? ), as compared to a stock spindle. So that will raise the roll centers? Unless I'm seeing it wrong? This is with both spindles( stock or dropped) having the car set at the same height (24.5" fender lip )
We need someone with a front end geometry program on the computer to figure out the effects.

[brads70]

At the track I work at, these are commonly used to set up roll centers, etc...
Just throwing it out there in case you didn't know these were available? You can get different ball joint pins to customize the control arm heights.
http://www.howeracing.com/c-510-howe-precision-ball-joints.aspx

[cudazappa]

I don't know...? if you imagine at the wheel on the ground the lower ball joint on a dropped spindle  is lower to the ground now ( 2"? ).( and so is the tie rod end, which is bolted to the steering arm that is part of the ball joint) which I'm thinking will mess with bumpsteer?  Also the upper ball joint is lower to the ground ( 2"? ), as compared to a stock spindle. So that will raise the roll centers? Unless I'm seeing it wrong? This is with both spindles( stock or dropped) having the car set at the same height (24.5" fender lip )
We need someone with a front end geometry program on the computer to figure out the effects.

Not quite.  While, yes, this will affect roll centers, it doesn't change the suspension geometry otherwise.  The chassis stays in the same relationship to ball joints and tie rods.  all that has changed is the wheel axis has been moved 2" (which changes the roll centers).  So your bumpsteer isn't affected.

The hotchkis UCAs actually eliminate much of the anti-dive and some of the bump steer.  the dropped spindle won't affect those changes.  I think the remainder of the bump steer is eliminated by their tie rod ends.  (this is almost all off the top of my head).

BTW: I just purchased 1.22" t-bars for my car (10min ago) I have to talk to a guy on how he kept his challenger so low.  He has 1.24" on his.  I know he doesn't have dropped spindles.

[brads70]

Here is a picture like 72bluNblu posted to explain what I'm saying....It's not to scale or proportion of course.Just demonstrates what I'm trying to say. Notice the ball joint (and  while not shown, also the tie rod) changes in height. The track width changes slighty as well ( not shown in the drawing)with the different angles of the UCA and LCA but not enough to worry about I don't think?


What I'm trying to determine is would my car benefit from the magnumforce dropped spindle? Would it help or hurt the geometry/handling of my car?
This raises the question is what is the factory ride height? What's the factory tire size/height? We seem to have determined somewhat that a fender lip height of 24.5" with a 235/60/r-15 tire is good for a street car. What and where is the factory height setting? I realize this might not be the best for a track car at 24.5", but that seems to be the lowest height that doesn't drag the headers/chassis.

[HP2]

When your running 1.22 t-bars, you can crank the muther way down low because you won't require a lot of suspension travel when the car stays flat in corners. To get further gains you can then either re-index the anchors, or hog out the control arm adjuster mounts.

72b&b, when you do have an opportunity to take measurements we will want to know the center of the following; lower ball joint, upper ball joint, torsion bar and the two upper control arm pivots. With that info, I can get plots done.

brads70, The factory spec for ride height did not reference the fender but rather the t-bar and lower ball joint. I forget the exact spec, but  think it was in the neighborhood of 1.5" higher on the t-bar side or enough to make the butt look like it was dragging on cars fresh off the dealers lot.

[brads70]

72bluNblu, looking at your pictures...mine is about the same? I know my rear is up to high but tire is about 1/4 higher than  the top of the wheel opening lip.

The t-bars seemed to have "settled" as member 72Challorange suggested they would? Here is a picture when I first installed them.