Author Topic: Would dropped spindles help handling?  (Read 45235 times)

Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2010 - 09:54:09 PM »
All the spindle is doing is moving the axis of the wheel, ball joints and other related hardware stay in the same locations.

Not quite.  While, yes, this will affect roll centers, it doesn't change the suspension geometry otherwise.  The chassis stays in the same relationship to ball joints and tie rods.  all that has changed is the wheel axis has been moved 2" (which changes the roll centers).  So your bumpsteer isn't affected.

Not possible. The axis of the wheel moves up 2" on the spindle. The wheel is the same height, the spindle is the same height. This means that the ball joints have moved closer to the ground, because they have moved with respect to the wheel axis (remember, the spindle is still the same height.)


And for those of you awaiting measurements...  ;D

All measurements are from the ground to the center of the joint/pivot. I feel pretty good about the ball joint measurements, the pivot were harder to get a straight line down to the ground on, and harder to see, so if they don't make complete sense, well, I goofed up.

Lower ball joint:      7 1/4" (to the casting line on the ball joint, close to center and a good reference)
Upper ball joint:      16 1/2"
Torsion bar:            10"
UCA front pivot:      19"
UCA rear pivot:       16 1/2"

72bluNblu, looking at your pictures...mine is about the same? I know my rear is up to high but tire is about 1/4 higher than  the top of the wheel opening lip.

The look pretty close. The ass end of mine is up higher now too, about even with the top of the tire. I went to super stock springs from the XHD's that were on the car in my signature. I did this when I went to the B body rear and offset spring kit, because the hangers I already had were set up for shorter springs and I wanted to see where it would sit. I think I'm going to put the SS springs on my Dart and by some A-body springs for the Challenger to lower it down a little again.

I have to talk to a guy on how he kept his challenger so low.  He has 1.24" on his.  I know he doesn't have dropped spindles.

And when you find out, do tell. Although, the 1.24" torsion bar (this is the largest that will fit in the anchors) was typically used in oval track racing, and those cars were set up with re-indexed torsion bar anchors. My guess is that's how he did it, as it was a fairly well known racer's trick. 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010 - 07:09:07 PM by 72bluNblu »




Offline brads70

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Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #31 on: October 26, 2010 - 07:49:46 AM »
72bluNblu, were are you measuring your t-bar at? I'm just thinking, if our cars at the fender are the same height then the t-bar height should be the same also?
I measured mine at the t-bar socket on the LCA. I notice it gets lower as you go back to the t-bar crossmember.
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline HP2

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Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #32 on: October 26, 2010 - 09:01:16 AM »
And for those of you awaiting measurements... 

Thank you, I'll get to work on those this evening. I will do a plot for a suspension at stock ride height and then a drop spindle version. We already have a range of t-bar lowered options. This will reveal roll center movement but will not address bump steer. I called an old oval track buddy who thinks he still has an analysis program  that he will try to find for me that we can play around with bump steer stuff.

And when you find out, do tell. Although, the 1.24" torsion bar (this is the largest that will fit in the anchors) was typically used in oval track racing, and those cars were set up with re-indexed torsion bar anchors. My guess is that's how he did it, as it was a fairly well known racer's trick.

Reindexing the anchors will do it. Or you can "index" the control arm when you install them. Instead of intalling the t-bars with the control arm at full drop, you move the arm up towards ride height until the t-bar hexes align. This should be close to actual ride heigth for the control arm when the bar finally fits in. Since that large of a t-bar has so much resistance, it typically will not travel as far as a lighter bar in street driving, so you do not require as much suspension travel. In an banked, oval track application it is slightly different though because the banking of the track creates greater downforces on the suspension, so evena massive 1.22 bar will move a fair amount compared to a road race or street application, hence the need for additional wheel travel. On a side note, you know the super speedway cars were using t-bars up to 1.5" in diameter. That's stinking huge.

Offline Bullitt-

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Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #33 on: October 26, 2010 - 09:17:53 AM »
I don't know much about bump-steer but see these offered for lowered mustangs...if your going with heim-joint tie rod ends looks like a possible solution.
http://www.americanmuscle.com/bumpsteer-kit.html
article explaining...they just added washers  :dunno:
http://www.mustangandfords.com/techarticles/suspension/mufp_0611_bumpsteer_explained/index.html
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010 - 09:26:18 AM by Bullitt- »
Wade  73 Rallye 340..'77 Millennium Falcon...13 R/T Classic   Huntsville, AL
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Offline brads70

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Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2010 - 12:26:55 PM »
I don't know much about bump-steer but see these offered for lowered mustangs...if your going with heim-joint tie rod ends looks like a possible solution.
http://www.americanmuscle.com/bumpsteer-kit.html
article explaining...they just added washers  :dunno:
http://www.mustangandfords.com/techarticles/suspension/mufp_0611_bumpsteer_explained/index.html


Hi Wade!
That is pretty common stuff with the oval track crowd, and MUCH cheaper at any place that sells oval track parts! :2thumbs: One drawback to them in oval track is they won't take much abuse, rub tires and they bend.
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline brads70

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Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2010 - 12:34:12 PM »
I called an old oval track buddy who thinks he still has an analysis program  that he will try to find for me that we can play around with bump steer stuff.

I just ran into a stock car buddy that says he has a computor program I can get a copy of too. Never used one before so it should be interesting! I have always either drawn it out on mastercam or full size on a huge sheet of paper. ( very old school! :grinyes:) Now I just gotta keep on my buddy till so remembers... :biggrin:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2010 - 06:23:10 PM »
72bluNblu, were are you measuring your t-bar at? I'm just thinking, if our cars at the fender are the same height then the t-bar height should be the same also?
I measured mine at the t-bar socket on the LCA. I notice it gets lower as you go back to the t-bar crossmember.

I agree, they should be the same, or close anyway (body variations and all), so I thought I'd check again.

I remeasured everything again today, since I was measuring in the dark last night. Only big change was the torsion bar, I'm not sure how I messed that up that bad.  :dunno:  Sorry for messing those up, hate to think you guys have to restart your drawings.  :eek4:

Lower ball joint:      7 1/4" (to the casting line on the ball joint, close to center and a good reference)
Upper ball joint:      16 1/2"
Torsion bar:            10"
UCA front pivot:      19"
UCA rear pivot:       16 1/2"

The torsion bar measurement is right at the LCA cup to the center of the bar. Unfortunately, this is also on the asphalt part of my driveway, as they were last night. I may have to talk my girlfriend into moving her truck so I can get it on some concrete. Maybe you guys should just disregard these numbers until then. The ball joint numbers I think are pretty close, but the pivots are just really hard to get a straight shot to the ground from, and the asphalt part of my driveway probably isn't a consistent enough surface for a good measurement anyway.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2010 - 07:08:46 PM by 72bluNblu »

Offline brads70

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Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2010 - 07:29:51 PM »
Phew! That's better, I was really scratching my head at that one! :smilielol: :2thumbs:
I can wait to get this program and try out what happens when you use the Howe ball joint. The studs are replaceable up to .500" higher ( in .100" increments)
I can make or buy what I need to make what ever adjustment would be best, but my problem is I don't know what # are the best? eg. roll centers?
I went over to a local supplier of oval track parts today looking at the Howe ball joint, they are nice pieces! I also looked at computer programs he was selling for front end set up. The problem I have with it is that it seems to be only 2D , viewed from the front of the car. It doesn't ( I think?) figure out bumpsteer, scrub radius, ackerman, etc...?
I was just sitting here thinking about making my own lower ball joints and steering arms if I had to? If there was a need/benefit for it? I could use a screw in ball joint, you can buy the threaded sleeve for making your own control arms....... my mind is going 100mph now?  :grinyes: I like new challenges!
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline HP2

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Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2010 - 10:37:27 PM »
Do you have a picture of this modification?


Look at this control arm. Notice the half round area where the t-bar adjuster sits. Notice it's relative distance to the bottom of the control arm. Extend the length of this slot and you move the adjusting block down. This lowers the contact point of the t-bar adjusting block. So, if your adjuster is screwed in the same amount, this change equates to a lowering of ride height, or if your car is lower via spindles, it allows you to thread more adjuster in to the block.


Offline brads70

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Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #39 on: October 26, 2010 - 10:59:33 PM »
Look at this control arm. Notice the half round area where the t-bar adjuster sits. Notice it's relative distance to the bottom of the control arm. Extend the length of this slot and you move the adjusting block down. This lowers the contact point of the t-bar adjusting block. So, if your adjuster is screwed in the same amount, this change equates to a lowering of ride height, or if your car is lower via spindles, it allows you to thread more adjuster in to the block.




Gotcha! a picture is worth a thousand words!  :grinyes:  :2thumbs:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline HP2

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Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2010 - 11:06:27 PM »
Sorry for messing those up, hate to think you guys have to restart your drawings. 

Lower ball joint:      7 1/4" (to the casting line on the ball joint, close to center and a good reference)
Upper ball joint:      16 1/2"
Torsion bar:            10"
UCA front pivot:      19"
UCA rear pivot:       16 1/2"


No biggie, I didn't start until tonight.

So, I did this on a 12"=1" scale, which is the easiest way to fit this layout on to two 8x11 sheets. That also means converions are a bit tight, so measurements are not meant to be absolutes, but rather relative. If we were geting into an actual car set up, I'd plot this across about 4' of paper, or spring for a program. I'll try to scan the plot tomorrow at work and post it up later.

Okay, so the results. Figuring a 235/60 tire, which is shorter than OEM, but using an OEM spec alignment ride height, I come up with around a 3.5-3.75" roll center. Using my crank down the bars until the lower control arms are level method, I get a 2.75-3" roll center. Using the drop spindles with 72b&b's locations, roll center moves up to around 5.25-5.5" high. Coincidently, stock height with stock tires tended to be around the 5" range as well.

Just for grins, rear roll centers are located mid way between the imaginary line drawn between spring eyes and the center of the axle shaft, or somewhere between 11.5 and 14" depending on your spring set ups. Mines on the low end, SS packs or springs with a high arch will be on the high end.

So what's all that mean...good question that is tough to answer for a street car. When I was racing, we tended to set front roll centers in the 3-4" range, rear around 10, and tried to keep the moment lever arm as short as possible by lowering the COG and set it with huge springs rates, like 1000-1200# up front. But this was an asphalt car on high banking. A dirt car would want the opposite so it rolls over more and gets more bite. I'd think a street car would want a compromise between the two because you want it to corner flat, but do not generate large amounts of downforce necessitating large spring rates. 

Remember the front roll center is just one aspect of setting up the car. We also want to know the COG location and its relative position to the roll axis. The size of this distance would then direct you towards bigger or smaller sway bars to control body roll. Once you have a general direction in that regard, you then need to calculate roll couple percentage front to rear, which can get real cumbersome real quick. This is further complicated by the fact that with a classic mopar, we only get to choose among 3 decently sized t-bars rates, where the coil spring boys have 30 choices all 50# apart.

So, there is one aspect of the drop spindles. This doesn't even get in to any bump analysis yet, which will be intersting to see since the outer tie rod also drops two inches with this change. Combine that with the anti-dive Hotchkis arms, and it will get real interesting real fast. :2thumbs:

Offline brads70

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Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #41 on: October 26, 2010 - 11:18:39 PM »
I just found this free download for roll center calculations. I haven't had a chance yet to play with it? Meaning I have no idea of it's usefulness? Just thought I'd pass it along?
http://performancetrends.com/download.htm#cta
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline brads70

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Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2010 - 11:39:50 PM »
I just found this free download for roll center calculations. I haven't had a chance yet to play with it? Meaning I have no idea of it's usefulness? Just thought I'd pass it along?
http://performancetrends.com/download.htm#cta



Forget this one....won't let you imput dimensions without buying it.....
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2010 - 02:19:17 AM »
HP2-

Makes sense to me. If you figure on lowering the car 2" by using the 2" drop spindles, then in theory anyway the car retains the same UCA and LCA angles as stock, even though everything gets closer to the ground.

For me, as I mentioned before, I went with drop spindles simply because I couldn't get the nose of the car down otherwise. And, it seems to me at least that it improved its handling, but that probably has more to do with the COG than anything else. Considering I still don't have sway bars or frame connectors, I think it actually stays fairly flat for a big old mopar.

And when it gets down to the nitty-gritty of fine tuning, there's a ton of variables, and some pretty respectable/knowledgeable folks that have different opinions. And a street driven car will always be a compromise, race cars don't have to clear speed bumps, and no one cares if they rattle the fillings in your teeth loose. My car was lower before, probably by and least 1/2", and I'm sure it handled better there. But as daily driver I just got tired of banging my header pipes on everything.

Still, what is obvious is that I need to look at a few things on my car in a little more detail. And I would like to get some better measurements, since I'm sure they'll change a little if I move it onto some concrete.

Offline brads70

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Re: Would dropped spindles help handling?
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2010 - 09:45:41 AM »
"So, there is one aspect of the drop spindles. This doesn't even get in to any bump analysis yet, which will be intersting to see since the outer tie rod also drops two inches with this change. Combine that with the anti-dive Hotchkis arms, and it will get real interesting real fast. "

This is the part I would want to know before I bought the drop spindles? I can get it to the ride height I want now so...
 So to sum up the conclusions so far, your saying the dropped spindles put the roll centers back closer to stock with a 235/60/R-15 tire
« Last Edit: November 29, 2010 - 05:32:13 PM by brads70 »
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0