Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!

Author Topic: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!  (Read 36276 times)

Offline Street_Challenged73

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 8826
  • '73 FC-7 Challenger..Member since October 20, 2002
    • My '73 Challenger Restoration Page
Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2004 - 01:05:35 PM »
 :oThat's really impressive, 1974Cuda360. :o :o worship  I'll be interested to see your "how to" of this setup when you make it available to the rest. 
1973 Dodge Challenger......................The ongoing project. (00/----\00)
1991 Dodge Stealth R/T Twin-Turbo....The sunny day cruiser (RTBoost)
1990 Toyota Celica GT Liftback...........The new daily & winter driver.
All-American Muscle: 'Cudas and Challengers...Still the Elite and always will be.

                                                                                             
                 
Street_Challenged73 from Wisconsin




Offline MAXcuda

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 402
Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2004 - 02:10:57 PM »
74, that is awesome.  do you think your friend with the charger was having problems because the 5.0 programming couldnt handle the volume of air the 496 was taking in?  definetly interested in your results!   ;D

Offline Topcat

  • C-C.com Expert
  • ********
  • Posts: 15376
  • Member since 9/16/04
Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2004 - 03:10:42 PM »
Way to go! those smileys could,nt do enuff for that engineering. How long did it take you to transform everthing? I would imagine that it could be done to a 440 too!
Mike, Fremont, CA.


Offline 808cuda

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 183
  • RARE Fish!
Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2004 - 02:00:16 AM »
1974cuda360, excellent job! Pics look great!
What did you use for the intake/plenum elbow? Looks to be an elbow made to work with a  Ford throttle body.
The distributor looks to be an MSD Ford distributor. Did you cut and modify it to fit the SB mopar?
Look for ward to more info. on your project/invention!

Thanks,

Gil
1970 N96 Cuda 340 4speed (now Keisler 5 speed)

Offline EFI-Cuda

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 119
  • 1974 Cuda 408
Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2004 - 11:18:48 AM »
The intake is a regular carburator intake.    Since I have Magnum heads on my 360, I used Mopar's M-1 single plane intake.    I had a local machinist drill the intake for the injectors.    At the same time that the machinist did the intake, I had him drill blank injector rails that I bought from Summitt.    This step was as simple as finding a local machinist that could do the work and dorpping the parts off with him to get the job done.

Any 4 barrel intake can be converted into an EFI intake, but it is best to use a single plane intake.    Dual plane intakes are better with a carb for low RPM response and torque because of their longer runners.     The opposite is generally true for single plane intakes.    Using a carb, a single plane intake generally work better at producing more high RPM horse power since there is less restriction of the air getting into the motor at high RPM's, but is generally not as good at low end responsiveness.     When the single plane intake is converted into an EFI intake, you get the increased horse power benefit at high RPM's, but pay no penalty at the lower RPM range beause the EFI does not need to send a vacuum signal to the carb.     In other words, you have all the low end torque and responsiveness of a dual plane intake and all the high RPM horse power of a single plane intake with the EFI.

The upper elbow that bolts to the 4 bolt carb flange is a piece that I ordered from an ad in one of the Ford Mustang magazines.    You see some of the Mustang guys like to run carb intakes for certain applications and they use this piece to attach the Ford throttle body to a carb-style intake.     Apparently, some of the high-end Ford race guys think that a carb lower intake flows better than the EFI lower intakes.    Hey, I'm happy to borrow their technology, cause it works great in this application.     My Cuda's engine has never been as responsive at lower RPM's as it is now and I used the Mopar M-1 dual plane intake before converting the engine to EFI.
Cuda 408, Ford EFI, Magnum heads, Vortech V-2 Si-Trim, A-518 transmission and 3.23 gears.

Offline 360 'CUDA

  • Sr. Resident
  • ******
  • Posts: 5784
Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2004 - 09:02:06 PM »
I like what your saying but the L pipe looks so ford

Can it be turned around and used facing foward?

Offline miketyler

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2561
    • www.miketyler.net
Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2004 - 12:36:20 PM »
74Cuda - your car and my car look like twins; am very interested in doing this also. Hows your gas mileage? Have you put together a technical how-to on this?
72' Cuda restomod
70 Mustang Mach 1
07' Toyota Tacoma Prerunner Dbl cab in Speedway Blue!
01' Honda 1100 Shadow Sabre
96' Seadoo Challenger

Offline Chryco Psycho

  • Administrator
  • C-C.com Guru
  • *****
  • Posts: 36620
  • 70 Challenger R/T SE 70 tube Chassis Cuda now sold
Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2004 - 03:11:13 PM »
Awesome Job  :thumbs:
 I have been playing around with designing a 400 bolt on set up but I just do not have the buget to make it work   

Challenger - You`ll wish You Hadn`t

Offline EFI-Cuda

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 119
  • 1974 Cuda 408
Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2004 - 11:02:33 AM »
Ford’s mass air computer system is pure genius.     It is an adaptable EFI system for a V-8 that was offered on a factory vehicle.      And, this system can be obtained at almost any junkyard.     Ford’s mass air computer system actually senses how much air is entering the motor.    The computer uses this information along with input from the rest of the sensors and makes all the adjustments for the engine to run optimally.    The computer does this on it’s own!    There is no need to program the computer and create an air/fuel table for the computer to reference like the aftermarket programmable computer systems.    Ford’s EFI makes 40,000 calculations a second to ensure that the engine runs optimally at all times.   The only things that you need to do are:   1.) Set the engine’s timing (done by turning the distributor)     2.) Set the fuel pressure (done with an aftermarket adjustable fuel pressure regulator)     3.) Adjust the throttle position sensor (done with a digital volt meter and a phillips-skrew driver in less than 5 minutes).     That’s it.    Getting all the sensors in place and wiring the engine compartment to look neat took more effort.

Now, for the big-block guys that are wondering, “hey, will this work for me.”    I am sure that it can work.    As long as the fuel system is big enough to support your horse power level (injector size, fuel pump, fuel lines, fuel rails)   AND  the air inlet is big enough to allow enough CFM for your engine’s horse power level (mass air sensor, throttle body), the system should work.     Ford's EFI can control 42lb and 50lb fuel injectors.    As long as the mass air sensor is calibrated to the same injector size, the computer can control it.     The after market makes a bunch of different mass air sensors and throttle bodies for high horse power Mustang guys.     These big components and injectors should be adequate to supply enough fuel and air to a modified 440.       

For example, the stock EFI 5.0 Mustang engine only made 225 horse power, so stock 19lb fuel injectors, a 60mm throttle body and a 55mm mass air sensor was adequate.      My Mopar 360 is a 5.9 and is modified (oh, yeah!!!!)  to make about 370 horse power.     Some stock Mustang components would be too small.      I got 30lb injectors, a 70mm throttle body and a 73mm mass air sensor to satisfy my 360's needs for fuel and air. 

The only restriction worth mentioning is that the computer's rev limit is 6,250 rpm’s.     To rev above this rpm would require one of many aftermarket devices that are made for Mustang guys.       Hmmmmm, I know that 340's like to rev.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2004 - 11:23:12 AM by 1974Cuda360 »
Cuda 408, Ford EFI, Magnum heads, Vortech V-2 Si-Trim, A-518 transmission and 3.23 gears.

Offline DodgeFreak

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1887
  • Cars and trucks are my friends..
Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2004 - 05:21:21 PM »
are the trucks computers and stuff like say a 1\2 ton truck will the computer work the same as a mustang..or do i need a mustang computer..since your doing this to a 360...i'm wanting to do it to my slant now...and i've got a ford truck EFI thats not doing anything but taking up space and i know quite a bit about EFI stuff so i could probably do it...and my dad knows how to wire stuff...so between me and him we should be able to get it done..i just need to know if the truck computers will work..or set up the same way..
74 Plymouth Duster- restoring

77 Dodge D150 shortbox- as long as i don't change my mind will be a step side dually diesel or a 383 powered truck

04 durango 4.7

Offline EFI-Cuda

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 119
  • 1974 Cuda 408
Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2004 - 10:34:35 AM »
DodgeFreak,   

You need to stick with the Mustang computer for the EFI swap.     In particular, 1989 to 1993 Mustang 5.0 mass-air cars.     You see, the problem is this:     1.) Ford made a regular 5.0 V-8 and a 5.0 High Output V-8. (the Mustang got the High Output motor)     2.)  Ford also has two different firing orders for their 5.0 V-8's.     I used to race Mustangs, so I am farmiliar with their computer system.    I am not sure about the truck set-up.      Also, you need to make sure that the doner car is a "mass-air" equiped vehicle.     In 1986 and 1987, Ford did offer the Mustang 5.0 with a speed density computer system.     These cars are NOT usuable for the EFI conversion.

Speed density computers do not sense/measure how much air is getting into the computer.    Instead, this has already been figured out by Ford who programmed the MAP sensor for how much air the stock 5.0 motor should be using.     If you change cams or cubic inches with this computer system, you WILL run into problems because the computer cannot re-calibrate for these changes.     On the other hand, the mass-air equiped cars from 1998 - 1993 are perfect donor cars for the swap because this computer system will re-calibrate and adapt to cam changes and cubic inch changes.     Again, a mass-air controlled engine measures the actual amount of air that enters the engine.    This system adapts to modifications and changes easily.     This is why it will adapt to a Mopar V-8 and run it like it designed to do so.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2004 - 10:46:03 AM by 1974Cuda360 »
Cuda 408, Ford EFI, Magnum heads, Vortech V-2 Si-Trim, A-518 transmission and 3.23 gears.

Offline DodgeFreak

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1887
  • Cars and trucks are my friends..
Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2004 - 10:16:41 PM »
But...I'll be running into problems if i use a V8 by only using six of the 8 injectors...what would i do there...thats why i was figureing on using a Straight Six ford motor because it will only have 6 injectors...and the trucks old enough that most of the gauges aren't computer controlled.but id on't know if it has a MAS or MAP sensor i'll check into that...I'm wanting to run this EFI on my Slant Six.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2004 - 10:18:16 PM by DodgeFreak »
74 Plymouth Duster- restoring

77 Dodge D150 shortbox- as long as i don't change my mind will be a step side dually diesel or a 383 powered truck

04 durango 4.7

Offline miketyler

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 2561
    • www.miketyler.net
Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2004 - 09:17:19 AM »
I am very interested in doing this to my vehicle - any chance you have written up a how-to on this yet? Also parts list and/or numbers would be great; there is a great Mustang community here in the DFW area so I am pretty sure I can find the parts easy enough

Have you calcualted your gas mileage yet with the new system? 
72' Cuda restomod
70 Mustang Mach 1
07' Toyota Tacoma Prerunner Dbl cab in Speedway Blue!
01' Honda 1100 Shadow Sabre
96' Seadoo Challenger

Offline EFI-Cuda

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 119
  • 1974 Cuda 408
Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2004 - 10:55:46 AM »
I knew that the Ford’s mass air EFI system could work on any other V-8.    The system is so adaptive and self-calibrating that I’m surprised that this kind of swap is not more popular.    No laptop, no dyno time, no programming necessary.     Just plug it in, set the fuel pressure, set the engine’s timing, set the throttle position sensor and ride.

The toughest part for me was to take the things from theory to real life.    On paper, everything worked, but there was no one that I could consult with that had ever adapted all the Ford sensors and the Mustang wiring harness to a Mopar.

I will get together all the information for the swap, but until then, if anyone is interested in getting started leave me an message and I can assist you.   

EFI in general, has many benefits over a carb, but price is not one of them.     This sway allows us Mopar guys to have an inexpensive option for EFI.     Plus, the system is so adaptive that you can do almost anything to the motor and the system can adapt.    So, a supercharger, stroker kit, any other exotic engine combination can be entertained as long as the fuel system and air inlet is big enough to support your engine’s horse power level.

Now, as far as 6 cylinder Mopar fans are concerned, I have seen a guy that adapted the Ford EFI system and supercharger from a Thunderbird Super Coupe to a 6 cylinder Mopar engine.   This EFI system was also mass-air.   It was also distributorless and used coil packs.   This should make such a swap really easy.    This is a better EFI swap for 6 cylinder fans.     
« Last Edit: December 09, 2004 - 11:00:14 AM by 1974Cuda360 »
Cuda 408, Ford EFI, Magnum heads, Vortech V-2 Si-Trim, A-518 transmission and 3.23 gears.

Offline Pistol Gripper

  • Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 3124
  • Member since: Dirt was under warranty
Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2004 - 12:05:28 PM »
Here's a link that will give you some info on the EFI system, they're installing it on an old Cougar, but the idea is similar.

http://www.theclassiccougarnetwork.com/tccn/encata/tech/v728/shoptalk.html

P.G.
O ne
B ig
A $$
M istake
A merica