Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!

Author Topic: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!  (Read 36277 times)

Offline Mt.St.BigBlock

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2004 - 08:41:12 PM »
Hi 74Cuda360,
Thank you for sharing all that info with us. Very very interesting and  :thumbs: for working it out.
One question, is there a quickie way of telling if I'm looking at the right system at the boneyard? Kind
of a positive ID for the right donor besides just the model year 89-93?. Jeff
71 cuda 383 3spd manual gy9




Offline EFI-Cuda

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2004 - 01:23:14 PM »
Mt.St.BigBlock,

Any Mustang 5.0 (GT or LX) from 1989 to 1993 will work great as a donor car.    To be sure that the car is a 1989 to 1993 look for the mass air sensor under the hood.    Earlier Mustang 5.0's look the same, but are missing the mass air sensor.    Stay away from these cars bvecause their computer systems are speed density.     If you are removing the computer and wiring harness yourself, take all sensors that the harness is connected to if possible.    This is suppose to be an inexpensive EFI option, so save as much  as you can by getting used parts.    If a sensor is bad, the computer will tell you after start-up.    After all, it will be a computer controlled engine with a "check-engine" light.    A cheap code scanner from your local auto parts store can guide you to the problem should you have one with any bad sensors.
Cuda 408, Ford EFI, Magnum heads, Vortech V-2 Si-Trim, A-518 transmission and 3.23 gears.

Offline miketyler

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #32 on: December 15, 2004 - 06:17:43 AM »
so no catalytic converters need be installed? How about fuel pump? I assume you have to have an electric fuel pump to keep the fuel rails charged or?

Appreciate the clarification on target cars, am going to start looking
72' Cuda restomod
70 Mustang Mach 1
07' Toyota Tacoma Prerunner Dbl cab in Speedway Blue!
01' Honda 1100 Shadow Sabre
96' Seadoo Challenger

Offline EFI-Cuda

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #33 on: December 15, 2004 - 10:46:01 AM »
No catalytic converters necessary for this EFI swap.  And you are right about needing an electric fuel pump.   It is important to mention that an EFI electric fuel pump is different than a carb electric fuel pump.     Fuel injection uses much higher fuel pressures that a carb needs.    There is about 38 psi to 42 psi of fuel pressure in the fuel rails of an EFI car.    When the fuel injector pulses with this much pressure behind it, an atomized mist of fuel is sprayed into the combustion chamber.    This atomized mist combusts easily.     A carb electric fuel pump only needs to generate about 6 psi to 8 psi.

A fuel system for this application requires a fuel inlet line (from the tank to the fuel rails) and a return line (from the fuel rails back to the tank).      An adjustable fuel pressure regulator restricts the return of fuel going back to the tank.    This restriction is what builds up the fuel pressure in the fuel inlet line and in the fuel rails.    From the factory, our cars have one fuel line from the tank to the engine mounted fuel pump, then to the carb.     If your existing fuel line is in good shape, it is possible to use the stock fuel line as the return line for the EFI and run an additional inlet fuel line from the tank to the front of the car for the fuel rails.    This would work in theory, but if your existing fuel line is 30 years old, like mine is, I wouldn't chance using it.    An EFI application uses much higher fuel pressures that might not mix well with a factory stock 30 year old fuel line.    I left my factory fuel line in place and ran an additional inlet and return line for the EFI.   You can use braided line (an expensive option), high pressure EFI fuel line or aluminum fuel line to make your fuel system.   
Cuda 408, Ford EFI, Magnum heads, Vortech V-2 Si-Trim, A-518 transmission and 3.23 gears.

Offline RollingThunder

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2004 - 11:47:24 PM »
Well finally someone is making sense of the Mopar World...    i have a 360 as well and am VERY interested in this swap...    BRAVO man...    do u have any other info about it ? how about milage changes ?   right now i fill up about 3 times a week   :banghead:

Offline miketyler

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2004 - 05:59:39 AM »
I am with you on that mileage thing, I am guessing my car gets less than 10mpg  :ack:

I have found a donor car, a 91GT. The car is too far away for me to pull the parts myself. What are the specific components I need to ask for? I assume I need these :

1. Computer
2. complete computer EFI wiring harness (no cuts) with any and all sensors attached
3. fuel injectors and/or fuel rails
4. fuel pump
5. plastic air intake w/ MAF
6. Throttle body?

Also I see a lot of the guys talking about part numbers on their computers as 'A9P' or ? Is there a preferred model? How about O2 sensors?  Assume all is working, what pricing should I expect for all this stuff? Just need ballpark figure.

Will my stock distributor interface with the EFI or do I have to get some aftermarket unit or?
« Last Edit: December 18, 2004 - 07:07:30 AM by miketyler »
72' Cuda restomod
70 Mustang Mach 1
07' Toyota Tacoma Prerunner Dbl cab in Speedway Blue!
01' Honda 1100 Shadow Sabre
96' Seadoo Challenger

Offline EFI-Cuda

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2004 - 12:11:07 PM »
The Ford EFI computer harness is basically a stand alone system and only requires about 5 connections to be made for the computer to function. (assuming that all sensors are in place.)   The wiring and electrical connections on this conversion are pretty straight forward.   You should not be intimidated about wiring.

Here is a shopping list to help with gathering components from the Mustang 5.0 EFI system for your Mopar.
You'll need the following:

-   89-93 5.0 Mustang computer.   (Make sure that the donor car has a mass air sensor)
-   Engine wiring harness.   (The Mustang’s wiring harness is in 3 main sections.   There is the main wiring harness that connects
                to  the computer.   There is the O2 sensor harness that plugs into the main harness and runs to the O2 sensors.   And, there
                is the injector harness that connects the main wiring harness to the injectors and other related components on top of
                the intake manifold.   You need all three.)
-   BAP sensor (Barometric Air Pressure Sensor - black box on the firewall)
-   Ambient air temp sensor (in the intake manifold.   Cheap if purchased new from local auto parts store.)
-   Water coolant sensor (not gauge sensor.   Also in the manifold, and cheap if purchased new.)
-   O2 sensors (They are probably better new because it is very difficult to get them out of old junkyard exhaust pipes.)
-   Ignition coil
-   Distributor, cap, rotor and spark plug wires.

(General rule: If it is on the firewall and is connected to the wiring harness, take it.)


Now these next few items might need to be upgraded depending on the horse power out put of your engine.

-   mass air sensor
-   fuel injectors
-   throttle body

The stock Mustang mass air sensor is 55mm, the injectors are 19 lbs and the throttle body is 60mm.   These components will work to get the engine running and will allow enough air and fuel into a V-8 to support about 280 to 300 horse power.   (Remember, the stock 5.0 Mustang only put out 225 HP.)   If your engine is putting out more horses that that, you might want to think about upgrading these components.

If you decide that you need an aftermarket throttle body, get the stock, Throttle Position Sensor that sits on top of the stock throttle body because aftermarket throttle bodies usually do not include this sensor.

The Fuel Injector and the Mass Air Sensor are related.   To understand this relation, think about changing carbs.   If you change to a bigger carb, you are changing two things.   1.) the bigger carb lets more fuel into the engine and  2.) the bigger carb allows more CFM of air into the engine.    Fuel injector size must match the calibration in the mass air sensor for everything to function properly.    So if bigger injectors are required for your Mopar’s thirsty horse power need, get them and make sure that the mass air sensor matches the injector size.      Any aftermarket mass air sensor can be purchased to match your injector size.    For example, I am running 30lb injectors and a 73mm mass air sensor and a 70mm throttle body to ensure that my Mopar’s engine doesn’t starve for fuel or air.
 
All stock Mustang throttle bodies are connected to an EGR spacer and have an EGR Sensor connected to it (Exhaust Gas Recirculation sensor).   This is an emissions item that is not necessary for the computer to run.    Most Mustang guys eliminate this for race applications anyway.   I also eliminated this EGR spacer, but got a neat little electrical plug from Ron Morris Performance to plug into the wiring harness.   This electrical plug makes the computer think that the EGR sensor is still plugged in.   This ensures that there are no engine–check codes for getting rid of the EGR stuff.

This brings me to the Distributor.   This was a huge concern of mine when I was designing the swap.   Ford’s wiring harness plugs into the distributor.   I figured that I would have to take a Mopar distributor and put in Ford guts.   Instead, I came up with a better solution, I made the Ford EFI distributor fit the Mopar’s engine.    I worked with a local machinist that machined a base for the Ford distributor so that it would mount into the Mopar’s block.   He did some work on the distributor ‘s shaft and eliminated the Ford’s distributor gear and it was done.     The hybrid distributor was born.    This hybrid distributor is a key piece of the EFI puzzle.   With this distributor, everything becomes a lot easier.    This machinist can duplicate the distributor if others are interested.

The last big key piece to the puzzle was resolving the firing order differences without offending the computer.    Since the Ford’s firing order and the Mopar’s firing order are different, I had to do some custom work to the Injector wiring harness so that everything would function optimally.    I worked with a fantastic Ford engineer to come up with this solution with brilliant results.     I’ll discuss this later.    I’m getting tired of typing.    I hope that this helpful to those that are interested in an inexpensive EFI option.

And, by the way, my gas guage broke right before the swap (rats!), so I don't have any actual numbers to share yet.    But, I know that the mileage is better.     In addition, I get incredible low end responsiveness and torque.   The engine feels REALLLLLLY crisp and razor sharp.    There are no delays, no hesitations, immediate cold starts and all around improved drivibility, and it pulls like a run away freight train when you nail it.    It also looks pretty tricked out when you pop the hood.

Out of curiosity, has anyone else other than myself, owned a fuel injected 5.0 Mustang or has any experience modifying or racing Mustangs?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2004 - 06:05:58 PM by 1974Cuda360 »
Cuda 408, Ford EFI, Magnum heads, Vortech V-2 Si-Trim, A-518 transmission and 3.23 gears.

Offline DodgeFreak

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2004 - 04:15:45 PM »
Did any of the V6 Mustangs have MAF sensors???
74 Plymouth Duster- restoring

77 Dodge D150 shortbox- as long as i don't change my mind will be a step side dually diesel or a 383 powered truck

04 durango 4.7

Offline miketyler

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2004 - 05:42:37 PM »
I found a guy with a 91' GT that is willing to sell me everything including the distributor, fuel pump, intake manifold and all attachments,etc for $400

is that in the ballpark for the package ? Can you also offer up some details on the distributor mod and the injector firing order rearrangement?

72' Cuda restomod
70 Mustang Mach 1
07' Toyota Tacoma Prerunner Dbl cab in Speedway Blue!
01' Honda 1100 Shadow Sabre
96' Seadoo Challenger

Offline GoMango

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2004 - 10:16:39 PM »
74Cuda, I too have been on the "dark side" with racing 5.0's :burnout: At the time I could not go for a fwd and the gas mileage was much better than the 340 Duster I had.

Several of us had them in the 10-13 sec range...this EFI swap is cool might be something to look at for my BB Mopar
70 Challenger R/T
(Back on the road--1st time since '96)

Offline miketyler

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2004 - 09:06:00 PM »
can you offer any more detail as to the distributor modification and/or the injection harness firing order work-around?

I am really excited about doing this but would like more info before start spending any cash.
72' Cuda restomod
70 Mustang Mach 1
07' Toyota Tacoma Prerunner Dbl cab in Speedway Blue!
01' Honda 1100 Shadow Sabre
96' Seadoo Challenger

Offline miketyler

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2005 - 12:08:35 PM »
also would be interested in how A/C would fit into this. Assume it has an idle-up solenoid or other mechanism to alleviate the additional load at idle?
72' Cuda restomod
70 Mustang Mach 1
07' Toyota Tacoma Prerunner Dbl cab in Speedway Blue!
01' Honda 1100 Shadow Sabre
96' Seadoo Challenger

Offline RollingThunder

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2005 - 05:42:12 PM »
^^^  i have the same feeling...

Offline EFI-Cuda

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2005 - 11:12:10 PM »
Happy New Year to all. 

The Mustang's factory computer system does have an "idle-up" feature for A/C.   I don't have A/C on my Cuda yet, but when I do it will be easy to let the computer know that A/C is present.   A specific wire connects from the computer to the A/C compressor to tell the computer whether or not the A/C compressor is on.     Turn on the A/C compressor and the engine's idle will adjust accordingly.

Certain things are going to be neccessary for all EFI applications regardless of whose computer system is used to run the engine.    An efi fuel pump, fuel rails, fuel injectors and an efi fuel pressure regulator all have to be used period, no matter whose computer is used to run things.     I wanted to use the Mustang's computer system on my Cuda, but it was an experimental project for me until it worked.    As I was putting the whole thing together, I said to my self, "if this doesn't work I'll just buy an aftermarket computer system from somewhere (Edelbrock, Holley, FAST, etc) to run the efi."    This way, my financial investment in the efi fuel system (pump, fuel rails, injectors and pressure regulator) would not be a waste.      It just so happened that the Ford computer and the wiring harness worked.     

The other aftermarket computer systems are all programable, and this is what they will try to sell you on.   "Hey, our system is programable."      Well, I didn't want to have to program my computer.     I thought that putting the whole thing together was hard enough.     I didn't want to have to program, rent dyno time or have to get a laptop to figure out how to best calibrate my engine.      I wanted a computer system to do all of that for me, so I went with the Ford Mustang's computer system.     Not only is this computer self adapting, but it is cheaper because a lot of the system can be purchased used.

Anyone interested in more info about the swap or any specific questions about the purchase of parts can feel free to consult with me before buying anything.     I will be happy to assist to ensure that you do not spend money on things that you don't need.    Just leave me a message on this message board or email me.

And to answer Mike Tyler's question, you don't need the Mustang's intake manifold, the fuel rails or the fuel pump.   You cannot use these items.   



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« Last Edit: January 14, 2005 - 09:35:17 AM by 1974Cuda360 »
Cuda 408, Ford EFI, Magnum heads, Vortech V-2 Si-Trim, A-518 transmission and 3.23 gears.

Offline T Quad

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2005 - 08:48:21 PM »
My compliments to your creativity and car crafting skills. Great work!!

How much is it for a distributor as the distributor is the key part here..