Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!

Author Topic: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!  (Read 36282 times)

Offline EFI-Cuda

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2005 - 02:06:17 PM »
EFI Firing Ordrer

I worked with a GREAT Ford engineer on resolving the firing order issues. He originally recommended that I do not mess with the Ford's injector firing order. He said that it was fine to let the injectors fire in Ford's firing sequence, just make sure that the ignition firing order followed the Mopar's sequence. He said that this would be similar to batchfire injection and assured me that there would be no difference in idle or performance with the injectors firing out of sequence. Only an emissions sniffer would be able to tell.

But me, being a hard head and wanting correctly firing sequential injection, changed the firing order from Ford's to one that closer matches the Mopar's ignition sequence. The Ford engineer worked with me on re-routing the injectors to match the Mopar's sequence WITHOUT offending the way the computer functions. Everything works great, but if I had to do it again, I'd take the easy route and leave the Ford's injector firing order alone. I found a way to get the firing order close to sequential. Simply re-routing the Ford injector firing order to match the Mopar's ignition firing order will get you in trouble. So, do NOT to this without working with someone who knows what they are doing.


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« Last Edit: January 06, 2005 - 02:59:30 PM by 1974Cuda360 »
Cuda 408, Ford EFI, Magnum heads, Vortech V-2 Si-Trim, A-518 transmission and 3.23 gears.




Offline DodgeFreak

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2005 - 05:09:26 PM »
Yeah iwas thinking why not just match fords with the mopar firing order btu you need to have the injector fire when the valves are closed and the intakes just opening right??? or is there something else i'm missing....the way i see it you have to figure out where in the rotation the injector fires and then put it in the same rotation of the mopar?? is that right? because i'm going to try and find an EFI System in a V6 Mustang and run but i want the injectors to fire correctly....thanks.
74 Plymouth Duster- restoring

77 Dodge D150 shortbox- as long as i don't change my mind will be a step side dually diesel or a 383 powered truck

04 durango 4.7

Offline zstalker

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2005 - 02:18:22 PM »
what about the switching the wiring would be a problem?  obviously you're the one who's done the swap, so I'm wondering.  It does just seem like you could send the injector signal to the cylinder that's firing next...not that simple?  this seems like a very good swap to do, so if you could, enlighten us...thanks
Ah, what's that? Worm's wart! mmm! ...and frog's breath.

Offline 71fish

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2005 - 02:39:20 PM »
Wow - just seen this thread. That is AWESOME> My 340 has a warrantee block.. so I would def put on, say, a TPI.

But I wouldn't because if I couldn't use the shaker baseplate & ring.. it wouldn't be as cool   :burnout: IMO

Looks very cool though. :guitar:  Have to love that throttle response.

71fish
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Offline DodgeFreak

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2005 - 06:21:45 PM »
what about the switching the wiring would be a problem?  obviously you're the one who's done the swap, so I'm wondering.  It does just seem like you could send the injector signal to the cylinder that's firing next...not that simple?  this seems like a very good swap to do, so if you could, enlighten us...thanks

Don't want the injector to fire when the cyl. is firing...other wise the gas will be in the head and not in the Cyl..you need the injector to fire before the piston reachs TDC (i think thats right) and right before the exhaust closes to suck the fuel in.....or have it fire right when the Intake opens... to work effectively...(i think...am i totally wrong on this because this is how i thought it out..but i don't want to lead anyone in the wrong direction)...if you do the batch firing thing the it doesn't really matter i guess...its just if you want it to match to mopars sequence...is that right?? i'm still tring to figure this out my self...only for a /6...and not a V8
74 Plymouth Duster- restoring

77 Dodge D150 shortbox- as long as i don't change my mind will be a step side dually diesel or a 383 powered truck

04 durango 4.7

Offline EFI-Cuda

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2005 - 08:06:12 PM »
Hey DodgeFreak,

First, I wouldn't use the Mustang 5.0's fuel injection on a 6 cylinder.   This setup was designed for a V-8.    I saw a Dodge guy on the internet once who use the Ford Thunderbird Super Coupe's fuel injection system and factory Ford supercharger on his slant 6 Mopar.      The ideas behind this swap are basically the same as swapping the V-8 system, but the Thunderbird is a 6 cylinder.    Both the Mustang 5.0 and the Thunderbird Super Coupe are mass air computer systems and should adapt to engine changes and modifications.    One main difference between the Mustang's system and the Thunderbird's system is the fact that the Thunderbird is distributorless.   It uses a coilpack and six plug wires that run to the plugs.   This should make such a swap even easier, however I am not speaking from any firsthand experience with the Thunderbird.    My Mom had a 1989 Thunderbird Super Coupe, and I played with it, but not enough to give you any more concrete advice other than it should work.    If I can find out more information about the Dodge guy who used the Thunderbird Super Coupe's fuel injection system, I'll post the information.    Remember, this guy also used the Thunderbird's supercharger as well.   It looked like a really cool project.

As far as injector firing order theory is concerned, I'm not an expert, but from what I've been told from the Ford engineer that assisted me, there is littie to no performance difference between batch fire injection and true sequential fire injection.   He told me that the main difference was that an emissions sniffer testor could tell, but there would be no noticable difference in idle or performance.   I like to think of it this way;   A carb sends fuel down the intake runners and sometimes that fuel hits the top of the closed intake valve.    An instant later, that valve opens and the fuel gets into the cylinder.    This is happening sooo fast in a carbed engine and in an EFI batchfire engine that there is no real noticable difference as the rpm's rise.     Again, low rpm emissions seems to be the biggest benefit of sequential port.     

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« Last Edit: January 08, 2005 - 08:22:18 PM by 1974Cuda360 »
Cuda 408, Ford EFI, Magnum heads, Vortech V-2 Si-Trim, A-518 transmission and 3.23 gears.

Offline Silent_Leviathan

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2005 - 10:34:54 PM »
What about a MAF system from a late model F-Body? The LS1 used a MAF system with coilpack ignition. I realize that the GM MAF system is not as adaptable as the Ford system (I think you need to flash the CPU if you go up or down more then one injector size) but it would still probably work or am I overlooking something here?

Offline DodgeFreak

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2005 - 11:36:17 AM »
You can adapt any EFI system...its  just that Fords is more programable ?? basically you can do what ever you want with out upsetting your computer...Is the way i understood it...And theres not many Tbirds around my area...i'll keep alook out though thanks...and i was planning on yanking a EFI system out of a V6 Stang.....Thanks.
74 Plymouth Duster- restoring

77 Dodge D150 shortbox- as long as i don't change my mind will be a step side dually diesel or a 383 powered truck

04 durango 4.7

Offline miketyler

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2005 - 08:32:44 PM »
I am totally onboard with this but have got to finish out my trunk and fix all these water leaks before I can even think about motor mods.
72' Cuda restomod
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Offline Silent_Leviathan

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2005 - 11:07:24 PM »
You can adapt any EFI system...its  just that Fords is more programable ?? basically you can do what ever you want with out upsetting your computer...Is the way i understood it...And theres not many Tbirds around my area...i'll keep alook out though thanks...and i was planning on yanking a EFI system out of a V6 Stang.....Thanks.
The thing about Ford's system is that it used a Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor which makes it very flexible. Although some other systems use MAF sensors Ford's is much more flexible. For example the system used on the LS1 needs a ECU reflash if you go up or down more then one injector size.

Offline EFI-Cuda

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2005 - 03:41:21 AM »
There are a lot of good options for a Mopar owner that wants to go EFI.    The main reason that I created this post was that the option that I presented is CHEAPER than the other aftermarket EFI systems.    Some stuff you have to buy new and some stuff like the main components (computer, wiring harnesses and and some of the sensors) can be purchased dirt cheap at a local junkyard.    Remember, once the EFI fuel system is built (fuel pump, fuel lines, fuel rails and injectors), you can get any computer system to run the show.    The Ford system is probably the best bang-for-the-buck option since it can be purchased so inexpensively.    On top of that, it is a remarkably adaptive system that can adjust itself to a large range of variables and parameters.

I am glad that sharing the knowledge of what I have accomplished can be beneficial to others who want an inexpensive EFI option.   It is important to note that I am not an "engineer level" expert on EFI.    But the answers that I provide about this topic are based upon what I have done and what I know works.    My EFI Cuda is not a project car.   It is a fully functioning EFI vehicle and my answers to questions posted are based upon the knowledge that I have gained crafting this adaptation and the years of experience I have racing EFI Mustangs.


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« Last Edit: January 14, 2005 - 09:29:20 AM by 1974Cuda360 »
Cuda 408, Ford EFI, Magnum heads, Vortech V-2 Si-Trim, A-518 transmission and 3.23 gears.

Offline Silent_Leviathan

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2005 - 02:51:56 PM »
I'm surprised that your concept isn't more widespread. In retrospect it seems like such an obvious option since it (especially the Ford system) is simple, flexible, and cheap. That's usually the hallmark of a great idea: the fact that it's simple and obvious yet noone every considered it.

Offline DodgeFreak

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #57 on: January 14, 2005 - 10:28:40 PM »
Umm...is it just me or are you missin your Rad Cap??
74 Plymouth Duster- restoring

77 Dodge D150 shortbox- as long as i don't change my mind will be a step side dually diesel or a 383 powered truck

04 durango 4.7

Offline Grancoupe

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2005 - 07:15:15 PM »
What kind of fuel pump did you use to keep up the pressure? Is there an external that will create that kind of pressure? I have a fuel cell built into the trunk of the car. It fits flush with the floor and would pose a problem making an internal pump fit into the cell. Im asking because im very interested in this system. I have done some work on Mustangs in the past and have always appreciated them for their simplicity and performance/$ abilities. Considering the long term affects, after an E-body gets fitted with one of these systems, any additional enhancements like superchargers, nitrous, stuff like that can be used for Mustang applications which have been adopted by alot of companies. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Offline EFI-Cuda

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Re: Inexpensive-budget EFI option that rocks!!!!!!!
« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2005 - 03:56:44 AM »
Good question about fuel pump requirements.    There are a few things to know about this subject.

First of all, lets look at the stock Mustang's fuel pump.    It is only an 88 Liter per hour pump.   That's all that Ford found necessary for the 225 HP 5.0 engine.     Now, most Mustang guys that modify their cars will tell you that as horsepower increases, so does the need for fuel, so stepping up to a bigger fuel pump becomes necessary.    Ford offers a 110lph, a 155lph, a 190lph and a 255lph fuel pump upgrade for Mustang owners.    The Ford fuel pumps all mount inside the fuel tank.    Now for us Mopar guys, these pumps won't work unless we mount them inside our fuel tanks.    Fortunately, the aftermarket has many fuel pumps that will work for us.   The key is that the fuel pump has to be an EXTERNALLY mounted fuel pump.    External pumps are designed to pull fuel from the tank and send the fuel to the engine.    Internal pumps are designed for in-tank use only.    These pumps send fuel from the tank to the engine and do not pull fuel the same way that an external pump is designed to do.    

If you call a company like Summit Racing and ask, they can recommend several aftermarket EFI external fuel pumps that will work. (Edelbrock, Compucar, NOS, Holley, Aeromotive, etc.)     But before selecting a pump, figure out what you want to do with the engine (Supercharging, naturally aspirated or NOS) and guestimate the engine's HP level.    This information will help with fuel pump and fuel line size selection.  

For example, a supercharged EFI engine has a different and more demanding fuel requirement than a naturally aspirated EFI engine.     Naturally aspirated engines only need about 38 to 45 psi to function properly.     In a supercharged application the psi requirement changes.     Included with most supercharger kits is a device called an FMU (Fuel Management Unit).    This unit restricts the return of fuel back to the gas tank under boost.    By causing this increased restriction, the fuel pressure goes up under boost.    Depending on your fuel injector size and the amount of boost your engine is running, the psi can easily go from 45 psi to 60 or 90 psi.    The increased psi is what forces the additional amount of fuel into the engine under boost.   The increase in fuel pressure is porportionate to the increase in boost.   The proportionate increase of fuel pressure under boost is called the "step-up ratio."     Why is this significant for fuel pump selection you might ask?     It's significant because 60psi to 90psi is what separates some of the naturally aspirated fuel pumps from the higher capacity race oriented pumps.    Some smaller fuel pumps cannot sustain higher psi levels (60 to 90psi) and deliver the correct volume of fuel at this higher pressure.    In otherwords, get a good pump if you plan to supercharge or run nitrous.       [ VERY IMPORTANT NOTE]   In supercharged and nitrous applications, you NEVER want to run the engine lean.    .....unless you want to replace your blown headgaskets or melted pistons.    So, getting the right capacity fuel pump is important.

I use an externally mounted fuel pump by Aeromotive.    I believe that it is an A1000 fuel pump.    This pump will support approximately 700 supercharged horsepower.    My fuel lines and my fuel pump are much bigger than necessary for a naturally aspirated application.    I plan to supercharge my engine, so I got the big stuff right from the start.

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« Last Edit: January 17, 2005 - 11:10:23 AM by 1974Cuda360 »
Cuda 408, Ford EFI, Magnum heads, Vortech V-2 Si-Trim, A-518 transmission and 3.23 gears.