Author Topic: *** I need a Head Dr.. 302/308/J,X,LA,WTF  (Read 7664 times)

Offline Bullitt-

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*** I need a Head Dr.. 302/308/J,X,LA,WTF
« on: October 29, 2010 - 08:29:16 PM »
 Trying to make a decision .....best bang for the buck deal.

I have an opportunity to get some used 308 heads reasonably right now & need to make a decision.    My otherwise stock '73 340 has heads that were worked on by the local speed shop, R&R, & drag raced back in the 70s..I was told they were ported CC'd have double springs, stainless long stem valves & titanium retainers.     
 casting 3418915    used    1971-72    intake 1.88 exhaust  1.60
These heads woke up the motor considerably (I did have 2-burnt exhaust valves) but I need to have viton valve seals fitted & a couple of tread issues fixed so they need to come off.
  I'm looking for any increase in street-able power that comes with a change & reliability for the most reasonable cost...
My choices seem to be
   1. keep what I got.
   2. 302 casting to raise compression. (I've read that flow issues can cause a lean
                                                        condition with these & ports may be small)
   3. 308 casting to improve flow 
   4. Go with Magnum heads (I really don't want to change the rockers-n-stuff)
   5. Save up for something else, I"m seeing some nice stuff now for under a grand.
         http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/products.php?browse=category&level0=U21hbGwgQmxvY2snTEEnIDI3MywzMTgsMzQwIGFuZCAzNjAgZW5naW5lcw==&level1=Q3lsaW5kZXIgSGVhZHM=&partid=25739

  I may be putting in a little better than stock cam but nothing radical...
     Thoughts?     Recommendations?

Thanks
Wade

                               
     
 
Wade  73 Rallye 340..'77 Millennium Falcon...13 R/T Classic   Huntsville, AL
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Offline CUDA JAS

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Re: *** I need a Head Dr.. 302/308/J,X,LA,WTF
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2010 - 09:09:15 PM »
great question...wish i had answers, but i will be watching for comments.
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Offline ChallengerHK

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Re: *** I need a Head Dr.. 302/308/J,X,LA,WTF
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2010 - 10:03:31 PM »
I have no answers either, but another question: Can the 302 heads be ported significantly to get more out of them?


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Offline Bullitt-

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Re: *** I need a Head Dr.. 302/308/J,X,LA,WTF
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2010 - 10:14:55 PM »
I have no answers either, but another question: Can the 302 heads be ported significantly to get more out of them?

Some good reading...bigger valves seem to be the key
http://www.moparchat.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-1612.html

I'm not seeing any magic based on the #s from this chart for the 308/aka 576 High Swirl heads unless you port & install 2.02 valves
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/360cylhd.html
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010 - 10:23:59 PM by Bullitt- »
Wade  73 Rallye 340..'77 Millennium Falcon...13 R/T Classic   Huntsville, AL
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Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: *** I need a Head Dr.. 302/308/J,X,LA,WTF
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2010 - 02:41:30 AM »
Ok, here goes. By now I think everyone knows that I went through a pretty long process picking the heads for my 340 sooooo....

1. Stock 915's (J heads) will flow around 200 cfm at .500" of lift. That's not bad at all. Even with 1.88/1.60 valves, if they've had some port work, they should better that number.

2. Don't mess with the 302's. The ports are too small, and even re-worked they won't flow well enough to beat even a mildly worked on set of 915's. Shady Dell (probably the best porting guys ever) have their 302's maxed out at 246 cfm, even with a stage 3 port. Stock they're only 172.

3. 308's are good heads. I actually have a set on my 340, ported to flow 264 cfm. But, they're still open chamber (mine are 65 cc's), and at 264 cfm they're fairly close to maxed out. But, if you already have a set of 915's that have been ported, the 308's won't offer a huge advantage (vs say putting big valves in your 915's). The exhaust ports are better, but unless you're looking for every last drop of horsepower the ported 915's can flow very close to the same, if the port work is comparable.

4. Magnums- These are closed chamber heads, and come stock with 1.92/1.62 valves. I think that as a cheap bolt on for a moderate to hot 318, they're awesome. They flow better than 318 heads, keep/raise compression, good stuff. But they don't really flow any better #'s than a 2.02/1.60 915 head,  without porting. Other than a little compression, I don't think you'll see any big gains. Your ported 915's already flow more, and the Magnums also don't have as much room for porting as I understand it.

5. Save up for something else- If you really want to do better than your ported 915's, I'd look at a set of RHS X-heads. With a set of 2.02/1.60 valves, these will flow over 260 cfm, even without porting, so they'll flow better than your 915's pretty much out of the box (bigger valves). I'll look for their flow numbers, I had them before. I do know they outflow my ported 308's with no changes other than the big valves. They also have a 62cc chamber (closed design), so that will up your compression. If the RHS heads had been out when I was buying heads, I'd probably have them vs buying a set of 308's and having all the porting done. Supposedly they won't take a ton of porting, but for up to 500 hp, they don't really need any either.

http://www.racingheadservice.com/Cylinder%20Heads/Small%20Block%20Chrysler/Pro%20Action/18%C2%B0%20360%20X/Cast%20Iron.aspx

Otherwise, you'd probably do just fine to put some 2.02/1.60 valves in your 915's, and if you really need compression maybe have them shaved down a little.


I've assumed that you still have the "low compression" '73 340 pistons and not the earlier high compression pistons that are over the deck. If you're rebuilding, keep in mind that if you do go to the higher compression pistons, you'll want to make sure you have enough valve to piston clearance if you go with a closed chamber head. My pistons are .018" over the deck, so I went with an open chamber design to avoid issues. Not saying it can't be done, just saying I didn't want to mess with it.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010 - 03:10:28 AM by 72bluNblu »

Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: *** I need a Head Dr.. 302/308/J,X,LA,WTF
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2010 - 03:08:41 AM »
Found the RHS LA-X head numbers...

Lift          Intake(cfm)   Exhaust (cfm)
.100"         69                 58
.200"         141              119
.300"         197              161
.400"         241              184
.500"         267              193
.550"         271              195

These #'s are with 2.02/1.60 valves, but other than that they're out of the box. There was a member/vendor over on FABO that was selling them with 2.02/1.60's as complete heads for around $1200 when they came out. Pretty hard to beat from a cost vs performance standpoint.

Offline wally426ci

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Re: *** I need a Head Dr.. 302/308/J,X,LA,WTF
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2010 - 09:02:20 AM »
 :popcorn:
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Offline Bullitt-

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Re: *** I need a Head Dr.. 302/308/J,X,LA,WTF
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2010 - 09:44:14 AM »
Thanks for your insight Bryan/72blublu.... You pretty much summed up what a bunch of reading had led me to conclude...keep what I got & maybe shave them. (there's a chance the valve size was increased but I don't know that).   When I say my 340 is stock I mean it has not been touched, depending on what is found when the heads come off as to what might need to be done but I don't anticipate more than a ring job, timing chain & cam. If more works is necessary I might look at higher compression pistons.

   Thanks
Wade  73 Rallye 340..'77 Millennium Falcon...13 R/T Classic   Huntsville, AL
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Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: *** I need a Head Dr.. 302/308/J,X,LA,WTF
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2010 - 01:18:25 AM »
I have used the 308 castings & have withnessed a 41 RWHP gain on a dyno , approx 60 gross Hp over X heads with no other changes

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Offline Aussie Challenger

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Re: *** I need a Head Dr.. 302/308/J,X,LA,WTF
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2010 - 08:05:59 AM »
I have used the 308 castings & have withnessed a 41 RWHP gain on a dyno , approx 60 gross Hp over X heads with no other changes
That was a good increase Neil, what sort of motor and what other modifications had been done to the motor before the head swap?   :burnout:
Dave

Offline HP2

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Re: *** I need a Head Dr.. 302/308/J,X,LA,WTF
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2010 - 11:50:45 AM »

Offline mopar12372

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Re: *** I need a Head Dr.. 302/308/J,X,LA,WTF
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2010 - 01:27:51 PM »
i know where there are some comando heads for sale for $ 800 (pair ) , the heads are new.
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Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: *** I need a Head Dr.. 302/308/J,X,LA,WTF
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2010 - 02:45:56 AM »
That was a good increase Neil, what sort of motor and what other modifications had been done to the motor before the head swap?   :burnout:
it was a 68 340 with a mild hyd cam using a mechanical 6 pack & headers , we did port the 308 heads

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Offline Road_Runner

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Re: *** I need a Head Dr.. 302/308/J,X,LA,WTF
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2010 - 11:28:54 AM »
So are 302s still a decent head to put on a 'mild' 318?  I picked up a pair cheap and was going to put them on with a decent 4 bbl & intake.  I read here that 302's were a good head especially compression wise with stock 318 pistons, but do they really flow that much more than the stock 318 heads?  If not, I think I'll just skip the head swap on go with a 318 compatible intake & 4 bbl.

Thanks, jim
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Offline 72bluNblu

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Re: *** I need a Head Dr.. 302/308/J,X,LA,WTF
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2010 - 02:29:31 PM »
For a mild 318 the 302 heads would be fine. I suspect they'll outflow a stock set of 318 heads, although I don't think I've ever seen flow numbers for a stock 318 head other than the 302. Without port work I'm not sure it'd be a "night and day" kind of performance change though. But the 302's have a good closed chamber design and better exhaust ports. Part of the advantage of the swap would also be an upgrade to larger valves, a set of 302's with 1.88/1.60 or even 1.92/1.62 (magnum head size) valves would provide some better flow, even without port work. The stock 1.78/1.50 valves are pretty limiting. Going to the later design 302 heads might also get you some mpg's with the more efficient chamber. 

The nice thing about the 302's on a mild/moderate 318 are that with the smaller ports they keep the port velocities up, so you don't lose low end response. And you can bolt them on without losing compression, so a full rebuild with new pistons isn't necessary.