Bad day at the shop

[Skunkworks Challenger]

Up Date!  Today I stopped by Rocket Restorations and traded my square bore manifold straight accross for a spread bore.  The cost is that my square bore was clean and beautiful and the spread bore needs bead blasting and painting.  Good trade though.  Now, I'm still thinking like Brads 70 that I could save a lot of weight and gain more performance with an aluminum intake, either a Holly or Edlebrock dual plane that will take either a spread bore or square bore after market carb.  I plan to use the TQ either way but down the road I may need to change it out. PK

[brads70]

Glad it worked out for you!

[boydsdodge]

I wouldn't run a single plane intake on a street driver, go with a dual plane.

[Skunkworks Challenger]

Hi boydsdodge, I guess it amounts to driveability.  I'm not expert in the matter, and have  little experience in high performance.  I did have a 67 Polara with the HP 383 and it was fast for a big car but I never did anything to it for the 20 years I had it. I've had my Challenger with a 340 for 20 years but never drove it much.  My other Mopar experience is with older cars or newer cars but not the performance years.  I'm looking at an Edlebrock dual plane EDL 2191 from Summit.  I definitely want to experience high performance with this car but not "all out".  Drivability is definitely important and it it the low to mid range that I'm looking at. Does this sound reasonable?

[femtnmax]

The Edl 2191 should be perfect for what you want.  Allows for spread bore thermoquad or square bore Holley.
I would not suggest the 'taller' air gap intakes, unless you have plenty of clearance between the air cleaner and underside of hood.  Like you have suggested, the 2191 should be good enough for moderate street use.
In the 2191, make a block off plate to cover the holes in drivers side of heat crossover, unless you have the emissions EGR valve which covers those holes.   At your "warm" climate on the coast, you could probably block off the heat cross over at the intake manifold gaskets that lay against the cylinder heads.  Remember that the aluminum will conduct heat much faster than cast iron, so leaving the heat crossover open could allow too much heat to the carburetor, and cause fuel boiling in the carb during hot summer dayssuch as sitting in freeway traffic.  I used to live in Seattle, spent many an hour sitting on I5. 

[Skunkworks Challenger]

femtnmax, The only thing that's changed about I-5 in the Pudget Sound area is that IT"S WORSE.  I certainly agree that now days boiling fuel is a problem.  I've experienced it in my 54 New Yorker with a 331 hemi. I took care of the heat in the intake manifold by installing aluminum heads without crossover ports.  That's one reason I'm considering an aluminum intake as it seems a shame to put on a heavy cast iron intake and negate the weight savings of aluminum heads.  I'm going from a 340 to a 440 and am having trouble dealing with all the weight gain. This idea was also espoused by Brads70.  Then there is the water pump housing--- but where do you stop?

[brads70]

I have just a pretty mild 440 and the Holley intake I mentioned works great for me. No drive-ability issues. I,m planning another build with a 451" so I bought that intake because from everything I read and was told on here that it was a good choice for "the best of both worlds" It fits under my hood too! I also read an article I think it was Mopar Muscle that tested a bunch of intakes for street engines and the Holley scored pretty good better than the Eddy intake. Not huge amounts of power but if I'm buying one might as well get the best one for my needs?
The water pump was pretty cheap , $100?? I had issues with it machining wise not fitting in some areas. So I can't say I'd buy another one. It came from 440 source.I see used Mopar aluminum pumps/housings come up on here now and again for pretty good deals, maybe keep an eye out.
To me taking weight off the car and especially off the nose is adding to the performance of the car.

[Chryco Psycho]

The eddy Performer is a lump , it will cost you power from a stock intake , the fuel distribution internally is awful , the carb is not centered & you will lose power

[Skunkworks Challenger]

Hi Chryco Psycho, I haven't placed an order yet so would appreciate a recommendation from you.  I don't want to save weight at the cost of power.  I like the idea of doing it once and doing it right.  For me that does not always seem to work but it's great philosophy anyway.

[Chryco Psycho]

I use the Holley Street Dominator intake [300-14] on most builds , they flat out work 

[Skunkworks Challenger]

Thanks for the recommendation.  There was an article in Mopar Performance, maybe a couple years ago, that showed test results of several popular intakes.  I vaguely remember  the details but do seem to recall that the Edlebrocks did not flow well and were below the better cast iron ones.  It seems that they showed that single plane designs peaked torque and horsepower at higher rpm than the dual plane ones.  I wish I could find the article or one similar to it.  I'm looking for torque and horsepower in the lower rpm ranges, realizing that the totals will not equal what is possible at higher rpm. Do you recall the peaks for the Holley Dominator series in dual and single plane.  I see that Holley has a dual plane model 300-64 and wonder how it compares to the 300-14.

[Bullitt-]

Here's the article....tested on a max-wedge, but it appears the 300-14 is the ticket.
       CP's right-on a whole lot more than not.

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/techarticles/engine/mopp_0207_intake_manifold_engine_and_rpm_range_test/edelbrock_torker_1_and_2.html

[Challenger6pak]

I had not read this thread until now.  It seems you are using a manifold because of a carb that you have.  My question is how do you know it is an 850?  That is more than the original CFM of the 340 Thermoquad.  Most 850's were marked competition series.

[Skunkworks Challenger]

Hi Challenger6pak, yes, I'm building a car around my carburetor.  No, not hardly but interesting point of view and great question.  I intended to use the cast manifold I had.  I also had this TQ that was on my 340 and worked well.  In the interest of economy (money) I thought this was a good idea until I found that the cast 440 intake was a square bore and the TQ a spread bore.  I did not know these terms before I started this thread.  I've learned a lot from the responders.  Since a manifold costs less than a carb I thought of just finding a spreadbore manifold.  Since  I would also like to reduce some weight I thought I would get an aluminum manifold.  The TQ I have is rated at 800-850 cfm.  I know this from a chart published by Carter and using the identification numbers off the carb base.  Beside the numbers on the base the chart says that the TQ's with 1 1/2 primaries and 2 1/4 secondaries are rated at 800-850 cfm.  My carb qualifies on all counts.  See www.carburetor.ca.  One would think that the 340 was over juiced with this large of a carb but that was the factory installed carb for a lot of 340's. 

[femtnmax]

The TQ carbs with the vacuum secondaries were able to work with many engine sizes, due to the secondaries only opening enough to match the vacuum "demand" of the engine.  I think I've even seen them used on slant 6 engines.
If the TQ carb you have has the smaller primary bores, and you use that carb on a 440, you may have a lower "maximum" cruising speed when only using the primary bores.  NOt sure if I'm making myself clear.
I had a 340 duster many years ago.  The fastest you could cruise (best fuel economy) without opening the secondaries, was about 70-75 mph with 3.23 axle ratio.  Now introduce your 440, being a much thirstier engine, and depending on axle ratio your max cruise speed could be lower than 70-75 mph.  I believe this may be one reason why the 360 engine came with 850 cfm TQ carb, which has the larger primary bores so you could cruise at highway speeds without running on the secondaries.
Be careful you don't paint yourself into a corner.  For me, I would not be happy with an economy cruise speed 70 or lower.
I have a little Datsun B210, max speed on the primary carb bore is just over 80 mph on level ground, and get 44-50 mpg...perfect.