74 Challenger driver theres light at end of the tunnel

Author Topic: 74 Challenger driver theres light at end of the tunnel  (Read 12883 times)

Offline Bullitt-

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Re: 74 Challenger driver theres light at end of the tunnel
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2011 - 09:54:17 AM »
Wheel alignment update:
I had set the caster to -2.5 degrees per forum recommendations.  .


I don't know where you got that idea, ALL recommendations I  can find are for Positive Caster, the consensus being the more the better makes the car want to go straight & tightens the feel .... Keep the offset bushings for now & listen to HP2 http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=57753.msg595650#msg595650
Wade  73 Rallye 340..'77 Millennium Falcon...13 R/T Classic   Huntsville, AL
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Offline brads70

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Re: 74 Challenger driver theres light at end of the tunnel
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2011 - 10:02:08 AM »
Wheel alignment update:
I had set the caster to -2.5 degrees per forum recommendations.  Evidently this is more for road course racing.  In my Challenger with power steering at speeds above 60-65 mph the car was almost dangerous to drive.  The slightest movement of the steering wheel sent the car quickly in the direction chosen.  Passing other vehicles at 70+ mph... I felt like...am I going to hit the center divider doing a lane change??   The steering was way too touchy.
So I looked up the OEM specs for the car.  With manual steering, yes the book recommends a slightly negative caster angle of 0 to -1 degrees.  BUT for power steering they recommend +1/4 to +1 1/4 degrees with +3/4 degree preferred. 
So I'm removing the offset bushings in the upper control arms, and installing OEM type bushings with centered holes for alignment adjustment.  I will set the caster to factory specs for power steering and leave the negative caster/quick steering response to the road racers and trailer queen types.

Interesting. I haven't had mine on the road with the new alignment spec, hope I don't find the same thing you did?  :thinkerg: :eek7:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline ShelbyDogg

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Re: 74 Challenger driver theres light at end of the tunnel
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2011 - 10:58:15 AM »
I have new stock centered bushing. As soon as the guy tried to approach the 2 degree caster settings that I gave him, he said it was starting to change the camber settings. So I said get it as close as you can.     My car handles great at high speeds and around turns.  One alignment shop I went to years ago,  didn't tell me that the cams flats were rounded and didn't adjust correctly and let me drive away. The cams, being out of sync smashed the tops of the adjustment holes, the the cams got loose. So my tires wore out.

 I now always install the new cam assemblies from Moog that have the 2 flats on the cam bolts and go to a guy that I watch doing the alignment.
Rob

3 E-bodies, Megasquirt-1v3.0, Edelbrock Pro-Flo-1, Holley C950, FAST EZ-EFI; say no to carbs...yes to throttle bodies

My Pace Car restoration thread:
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=44869.0


Offline femtnmax

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Re: 74 Challenger driver theres light at end of the tunnel
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2011 - 10:12:44 PM »
Wheel alignment update #2.  We have a great wheel alignment shop here in town; Tom has been in business for over 40 years and he still believes in quality work.  The car had positive caster before (1.5-2 degrees); but the combination of a loose steering sector adjustment and modified weight balance of the car caused the car to drive light and touchy at highway speeds.
I ended up keeping the Moog offset bushings for the upper control arms; they were installed for maximum positive caster.  Final wheel alignment specs are (LH/RH) caster 3.3/3.6 degrees, camber 0.2/0.4 degrees, toe in 1/16/1/16 for total=1/8 toe in.  With the extra caster and tightened steering sector the car definitely drove better on the highway…you still have to pay attention to what your doing, meaning you have to drive the car…don’t take your mind off the steering.  So it’s probably good enough for most folks.  My wife is used to driving our old ¾ ton 4x4 truck with manual steering, so her vote is “switch to manual”.  I picked up a nice manual box out of a ‘73 Duster and found a near new steering column adapter on ebay at a steep discount…It won’t take much work to swap over, so I’ll do that here soon and see how we like it.
The car weight balance with me included is 1980 lb front wheels and 1910 lb rear wheels which is 51% front and 49% rear…that’s good weight distribution in my book, better than what I had expected.  I was a little surprised at the 3890 total weight, but the car is a 74 with those heavy doors, and cast iron 4 speed; though all the heavy bumpers are gone.  Might say they were replaced with a school bus battery and 70 lb of steel plates; both in the trunk.
Replaced the Carter electric fuel pump with a Mallory 110 pump. The Mallory is internally regulated, and is definitely much quieter; and best of all the engine’s mechanical fuel pump can pull thru the Mallory better than the Carter.  Steady 3500 rpm (80 mph) cruising is now possible without turning on the Mallory pump. With the Carter pump the max was 2800 rpm before the electric pump was needed to supply enough fuel to avoid lean surging of the engine.  So I really like the Mallory 110 electric pump. I can use it for priming the fuel system, and leave it off to act as a backup if necessary.  On the outlet of the electric pump I added a Moeller Marine anti siphon valve (has an internal spring loaded check ball).  Part number is 033802-10, and it fits the 3/8 NPT outlet of the pump. 
I did look into the fuel siphoning back into the fuel tank.  The tank was venting thru the factory vapor separator located just forward of the fuel tank; it’s the type with the four hoses to the tank and one vent line forward to the charcoal canister.  The canister is gone, instead have a small inline fuel filter on the end of the vent line.  I wasn’t convinced the vapor separator was flowing freely enough, so I cut it in half and proceeded to positively clean out each tube.  The four tubes to the fuel tank were clear no problem, the one line that sends vapors forward did not seem to flow freely, so I tried drilling it out from the inside out.  In the end what really happened was I loosened up the stuck check valve that is located inside that vent line.  It rattles now like a miniature PCV valve; does flow a little better but is not a total free flowing design.   The next trick was welding it back together…the separator stamping is made of 0.024 thick which is the bare minimum my mig welder will do; had to do one spot weld at a time, no running beads.  Not the prettiest of welds, but it is sealed and I filled in the melted holes where the heat got to be too much.
Have 500 miles on the car now, with a couple long runs in the heavy spring rains we've been having...washing out train tracks and flooding the freeways..  Kim's wiper motor (passion4mopars) is working perfectly.  Thanks Kim.
Phil

Offline femtnmax

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Re: 74 Challenger driver theres light at end of the tunnel
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2011 - 08:54:13 PM »
Leaf spring update:
The Mopar performance rear leaf springs continued to sag lower and lower. It was a total waste of money to buy them; made in mexico of course.  They were arched up at the axle rather than convex like OEM.  So removed the Mopar performance springs but kept the main leaf for each side.  Then added all the original leafs that came on the car.  So there are two full leaves running full length.  I cut the “eyes’ off the original main leaf so it would lay flat against the bottom of the main leaf from the Mopar performance leaf set.  I should have cut the eyes off the MP springs and transfered the new bushings to my old main leaf.  The original leafs have more spring arch and still have extra stiffness on the RH side to offset axle torque, just like the MP ones.  That should help plant both tires equally on the pavement; and it worked very well on my 340 Duster as there would be two black tracks on the asphalt even though the car did not have sure-grip, but did have the battery in the trunk like I’m doing with the Challenger.
On the Challenger the 85+ lb battery, etc weight behind the right rear tire was causing the MP springs to really arch concaved just behind the fwd leaf spring hanger even with two full leafs reaching to the fwd spring hanger, so I moved the 3rd leaf fwd about 3 inches so there would be a 3rd full leaf thickness at the spring hanger.  Originally the 3rd leaf tapered to zero at the fwd end.  I redrilled the center hole in the 3rd leaf and cut the tapered portion off the front.  The original center hole is buried in a 6 leaf thickness of the spring stack so should not have any issues with cracking, and I chamfered the original and new holes to reduce sharp edge stress risers.
Within 1-2 inches of the fwd spring hangers the end result has 3 full leafs on the LH side, and 4 full leafs on the RH side.  The change in the way the rear of the car sits is just what I was looking for.  Both leaf spring stacks arch up from the rear axle, both spring stacks lay flat at the front rather than arching the wrong way.  The rear fender lips moved up 1.5-2 inches so now you can see the tops of both tires, and the springs are making us of the modified front spring hangers that I added earlier to help raise the rear of the car for more ground clearance.  I’m very pleased with the results.  The car sits level now, instead of squating in the rear.

To do it over again, I would keep the OEM springs, add new bushings front and rear, then add 1 full length leaf to each side.  OEM spring arc was about 5-6 inches on the main leaf.  You may or may not need to relocate the 3rd leaf on the RH side depending on how much weight is added to the trunk.  Photos show the fwd end of each spring stack.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011 - 08:58:59 PM by femtnmax »
Phil

Offline femtnmax

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Re: 74 Challenger driver theres light at end of the tunnel
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2011 - 10:42:30 PM »
July Update
Swapped out the power steering for manual box.  With the manual box there is some steering effort, but actually it is not bad at all.  Car drives much better at highway speeds, no touchy feeling now.  The power steering box with pump, hoses, and fluid weighed 57 pounds; the manual box weighed in at 19 lb for a 38 lb weight savings off the nose of the car. Had to buy a new pitman arm for the manual box.  Even though the manual box was out of a 73 Duster it still had the small diameter pitman shaft; whereas the 74 Challenger power steering had the large diameter pitman shaft.
Replaced the 2.66 first gear in the 4 speed with a 3.09 first gear.  Had to install a complete set of gears.  Brewers Performance had a real nice used set, almost like new.  All the other gear ratios are about the same.  The larger step from first to second is not even noticeable, the engine is still easily in the cam’s torque range.  When starting from a standing start don’t have to over rev the engine or slip the clutch a bunch.   So the 3.09 first gear works real well with the 3.23 rear axle gear ratio.
Got tired of the oil light coming on sometimes when the engine lugged down while starting from a standstill with the old 2.66 first gear.  I noticed when I installed the cam it just fell in the cam bearings.  I prefer a tighter fit with some resistance, so maybe there is too much cam to bearing clearance even with new cam and bearings.  So installed a high volume std pressure Melling oil pump, and a Milodon 8 quart oil pan.  The pan hangs down about ¼ inch below the K-frame skid plate, so I added a skid plate to the new oil pan.  The stock pan was about .06 material thickness, so I used about .1 (12 gage) for the skid plate.  First welded a double thickness of washers to the pan, then welded the skid plate to the washers.  This was done for the skid plate to clear the stiffening ribs in the bottom of the oil pan.  I’m running 6 quarts total in the 8 qt pan.  The oil level is about even with the slosh baffles at the top of the sump in the pan, rather than much higher/closer to the crankshaft as in a std pan.

Have just over 600 miles on the car.  The .92 torsion bars are not too stiff, even with all the weight removed from the front of the car. The wife said the ride is good.   The 1.125 front sway bar easily keeps the car level on corners.  The two pairs of mufflers are quiet at highway speeds, but let you know it’s there when accelerating.  The XV Motorsport seatbelts are easy to use and work great.
I may try a Lunati voodoo VH32 single pattern cam with 1.6 rocker arm ratio. Specs with 1.6 rocker ratio are 262 seat duration, 222 dur @ .05 lift, .499 valve lift.  This cam has a little faster ramp rates and a little higher lift than the H215 cam that’s in the engine now.  Would be a 3 degree step up in .05 duration, so won’t raise the power band too much.  The VH32 cam is able to run with 1.72 rocker arm ratio, so the magnum head 1.6 ratio should easily work with it.   I will say the H215 cam works great, torque comes on early and peaks about 5000 rpm.

Here is a photo of the new oil pan with skid plate.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2011 - 10:51:40 PM by femtnmax »
Phil

Offline femtnmax

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Re: 74 Challenger driver theres light at end of the tunnel
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2011 - 09:08:36 PM »
Exhaust update
Replaced the hooker super comp headers with Dougs.   The Dougs have smaller 1 5/8 primary tubes, and don't route next to spark plugs #5 & 7.   The plug wire boots for those two plugs were melting due to the primary pipe being so close to the plugs, so the Dougs took care of that.
The Good:  The Dougs were easier to install, no more melted spark plug wire boots, ceramic coated does help keep the heat down in the engine compartment.  The Dougs are tucked up closer to the bottom of the car, so there is a little extra ground clearance.  The bottom of the Dougs headers is about even with the bottom of the K-frame W/O the hemi skid plate.
The not so good:  Dougs primary tube routing is ok, but not great...had to dent in a primary pipe to clear the oil filter (no excuse for that in my book).  To be exact, the headers cleared the oil filter, but you could not slip a band wrench around the filter to remove it.  The Dougs collector is 3 inch diameter, but the reducer drops down to 2.5 inch diameter.  Most of what I have researched says the 3 inch diam needs to run about 24 inches before reducing down.  I cut off the reducer at the flange, and connected what was left to my 3 inch X-pipe system.
Overall I am pleased with the header swap.
The car has over 1000 miles on it now.  The wife says it drives like a new car on the highways...smooth ride not too firm at all, corners flat with no body roll, fairly quiet exhaust tone at highway cruise ( can easily have a conversation), steering very easy to control, plenty of power for passing- don't even use the secondaries- the TQ little primaries are all thats need to quickly reach 90 mph.  Fuel economy is 15-17 mpg, about the same as my 340 duster which had the same 3.23 axle gears.
I'm going to increase the camshaft intake valve duration and lift by changing the intake rocker arm ratio from 1.6 to 1.65.   The resulting valve motion will be a touch hotter than .875 cam lobe rates (one step below Mopar lobe rates).  I'll compare what change there is for idle smoothness, where the torque comes on, and peak rpm power.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011 - 09:10:35 PM by femtnmax »
Phil

Offline femtnmax

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Re: 74 Challenger driver theres light at end of the tunnel
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2011 - 08:01:27 PM »
Carburetor experiment
So I wondered if there was some performance left on the table with the thermoquad carb.  This carb worked well, but I could tell from the very slight hesitation at low-mid cruise that the mixture was not perfect, and the wide open throttle power was ok, but …was there more to be had?
So I put together a Carter AVS carb off a 1968 440 mopar that came on a parts truck I bought years ago.  This carb is rated at about 750 cfm.  To sum it up, I tried a bunch of jet combos but could not get this carb to work smoothly.  Acceleration was great, but cruise mixture was not working out.    On the other hand…the AVS is nearly a square bore carb with primary throttle plate diameter of 1 11/16 compared to 1 ½ for the TQ.  Looking at cross sectional area of the primary throttles the AVS has close to 25% more cfm capability than the TQ primaries.   The difference was easily noticed when starting from a standstill; the TQ required just the right amount of gas pedal combined with clutch pedal movement to get the car moving without stalling the engine…whereas the AVS larger primary throttle bores required just the slightest touch of the gas pedal, then let the clutch out and off you go…   The AVS was easy ( just the way I like it) compared to the TQ in that respect.  Also with those larger primaries on the AVS there was more acceleration before getting into the carb secondaries.   Part throttle passing with the AVS had more torque on-hand without having to floor it.  If I could have got the AVS to work out I would have left it on the car.
In a nutshell, after telling my wife about the carb results…she is talking about buying me a 750 proform carb for my birthday
Question ….I know vacuum secondaries work well on the street.....But do mechanical secondaries have more all out torque and HP...or are they a no-no for street use???  I also want to hook up a manual choke cable to the carb.   Opinions please.
Phil

Offline joelson6

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Re: 74 Challenger driver theres light at end of the tunnel
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2011 - 08:39:41 AM »
4 speed = mechanical secondaries

don't go for the proform, cheap in my book. spend a couple extra bucks and go with a quick fuel.


i noticed the same thing when i had a TQ on my 440. it needed a little more throttle when
letting out the clutch. plus, when i was racing it, there was that fine line with too much
throttle and bogging the motor when launching the car. with my quick fuel carb, it's a little
more forgiving. another thing to remember too, if the choke is still on the TQ, that's a
restrictor there. if you don't need it, remove it, more air. will flow

Offline femtnmax

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Re: 74 Challenger driver theres light at end of the tunnel
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2011 - 08:51:40 PM »
4 speed = mechanical secondaries
don't go for the proform, spend a couple extra bucks and go with a quick fuel.

I was thinking the same way.  Went with Quick Fuel super street series 750 cfm, mechanical secondaries, and annular boosters.  Quick Fuel tech said these boosters would drop the total flow to 700 cfm.  I thought this was ok considering all the carb sizing equations came up with 600-625 cfm.  Used a Mr Gasket fuel line with gauge, but their gauge leaked fuel, so added an Aeromotive gauge which is working great.
The engine is very responsive.  The jet engines I used to work on had annular fuel discharge to produce the best performance and economy, so thats part of the reason I went with them.  The car runs well, still tweeking the jetting to match my 4800 foot elevation.  The larger primary throttle plates allows for just touching the gas pedal and let the clutch out with no engine pull down fuss.  On the primaries alone the engine will run 4000 rpm and pulls the car to almost 100 mph in 4th gear.  The engine/carb feels like its got great potential, needs just the right jetting, so I’ve got some testing to do before the snow flies.
One big help of course is being able to see and set the float level on the QF carb.  In comparison the Carter AVS had very little fuel in the float bowl using the float level spec and today's formulated gasoline; of course it ran real lean.  I tried adding clip on weights (small sheet metal straps around each float) so the floats sunk into the fuel to the old markings on the brass floats, but this sent the mixture too rich, so more experimenting maybe would have got there.   I think the Holley will prove out to be the better choice.
Been to a coupe of local car shows, not winning any trophies, but plenty of folks taking pics and asking questions.  At the “old rods” car show in West Yellowstone there were several Plymouths, but I was the only Dodge muscle car.  I'm getting alot of compliments on the color from all age groups so thats good.
By the way I like the Doug's headers, glad I got rid of/sold the Hooker super comps.  Just say NO to melted spark plug boots and YES to more ground clearance!!
« Last Edit: August 12, 2011 - 09:07:44 PM by femtnmax »
Phil