Fast Ratio Steering Box Rebuild

[cwestra]

Here you go:  http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=74593.0

If you are just doing the upper seal I can put a micrometer on where the column goes into the box if you like - that should tell you if my upper seal is the same internal diameter as yours.

I read your linked thread.  Very detailed description and pictures.  I'll be referencing them for sure.

If you could take that measurement that would help a lot.  Just let me know where you took it from so I can verify correctly.  Whenever you get a chance.  Thanks for all your help on this.

[Kapteenikosmos]

I'm not sure about this but I would think that the only difference between normal box and fast ratio steering box is the ball screw assembly inside it? If the only difference is the actual ball screw then atleast the outside seals should be the same as in any other box.

So basically the rebuild kit you would need should be either for pre -72 (or was it 71) small diameter pitman arm or for the newer and larger one.

[UKcuda]

I think it was 1973 that they changed over to a larger shaft on the bottom end.

cwestra, I tried to measure at the top but the gap is just a whisker too tight to get my calipers in between the coupling and the box.  I am wondering now why you think you have a quick ratio box ?  Did they actually do a quick worm gear for the power boxes, or was it maybe just a longer pitman arm ?

Either way I would be surprised if the top seal is different on any of them.  If it was you'd expect to see different sized column couplings as well, unless there was like a step in it.

[cwestra]

I think it was 1973 that they changed over to a larger shaft on the bottom end.

cwestra, I tried to measure at the top but the gap is just a whisker too tight to get my calipers in between the coupling and the box.  I am wondering now why you think you have a quick ratio box ?  Did they actually do a quick worm gear for the power boxes, or was it maybe just a longer pitman arm ?

Either way I would be surprised if the top seal is different on any of them.  If it was you'd expect to see different sized column couplings as well, unless there was like a step in it.

Thanks for trying UKcuda.  That would be great if at least the seals were the same on all boxes (regular and fast ratio).  Aside from the pitman arm saying "fast ratio" on it, the box itself has "TA" stamped in the casting, which I am assuming is referencing Trans Am Racing like the motor.  Also, back on Jan 19th, nqkjw commented that the shafts are different diameter (see quote below).  I just don't want to buy a kit and find that it is not going to work.  Hopefully someone on this site will be able to confirm it for me.

nqkjw's quote on Jan 19th:

"Quick ratio PS box kit is different.
The shafts are a smaller diameter.
Went through this hassle when I did mine and you can only imagine the problems trying to figure out in Australia what was different since the same kit is supposed to fit all from 1957 through to 1974.
This is how I found out mine was a quick ratio box.
How it ended up in mine is anyone's guess "

[UKcuda]

Thanks for trying UKcuda.  That would be great if at least the seals were the same on all boxes (regular and fast ratio).  Aside from the pitman arm saying "fast ratio" on it, the box itself has "TA" stamped in the casting, which I am assuming is referencing Trans Am Racing like the motor.  Also, back on Jan 19th, nqkjw commented that the shafts are different diameter (see quote below).  I just don't want to buy a kit and find that it is not going to work.  Hopefully someone on this site will be able to confirm it for me.

nqkjw's quote on Jan 19th:

"Quick ratio PS box kit is different.
The shafts are a smaller diameter.
Went through this hassle when I did mine and you can only imagine the problems trying to figure out in Australia what was different since the same kit is supposed to fit all from 1957 through to 1974.
This is how I found out mine was a quick ratio box.
How it ended up in mine is anyone's guess "

Hmmmmmmmm.......read this:     http://firmfeel.com/fastrati.htm

It seems there wasn't ever a fast ratio power box with a different worm pitch.  The "fast ratio" power boxes were just like a regular box internally except they had a shorter travel built into the box and a longer pitman arm.  Fitted to the T/A and AAR (I read elsewhere they were actually an option on those cars and also fitted to some JS and BS cars in 1971).

If that is correct and yours is an original "fast ratio" box then it is either from 1970 or 1971 and therefore it will have the same sector shaft as those years (the smaller one).  That may explain nqkjw's comment if he had ordered a seal kit for a '73 or later box (when he says "the shafts are a smaller diameter" does he just mean the sector shafts on the fast ratio are a smaller diameter?).

If your box came from a T/A or AAR then it could be worth something to someone, although maybe they are not marked up any different from the 1971 fast ratio boxes, but even so it is still a bit rare.

It's good fun figuring out all this stuff don't you think.

[cwestra]

Hmmmmmmmm.......read this:     http://firmfeel.com/fastrati.htm

It seems there wasn't ever a fast ratio power box with a different worm pitch.  The "fast ratio" power boxes were just like a regular box internally except they had a shorter travel built into the box and a longer pitman arm.  Fitted to the T/A and AAR (I read elsewhere they were actually an option on those cars and also fitted to some JS and BS cars in 1971).

If that is correct and yours is an original "fast ratio" box then it is either from 1970 or 1971 and therefore it will have the same sector shaft as those years (the smaller one).  That may explain nqkjw's comment if he had ordered a seal kit for a '73 or later box (when he says "the shafts are a smaller diameter" does he just mean the sector shafts on the fast ratio are a smaller diameter?).

If your box came from a T/A or AAR then it could be worth something to someone, although maybe they are not marked up any different from the 1971 fast ratio boxes, but even so it is still a bit rare.

It's good fun figuring out all this stuff don't you think.

Thanks UK.  I tend to agree with you and am leaning in that direction.  I may just go ahead and order a kit and if it is not the right one I'll just return it. 

It's a lot easier figuring this stuff out with the aid of the internet, don't you think?  How in the world did we ever figure anything out before that.  Funny thing is, 20 years from now we'll be saying the same thing about how tough is was back in 2011, right?  Technology is great sometimes.  Thanks again.

[UKcuda]

Too right mate.  I got my first E-body in 1986 ('70 Challenger) and there was very little information or parts available over here in the UK and pretty much the only contact with the States was through the Summit and Year One catalogues.  A lot of nice cars got scrapped or messed up because no-one could get the parts (or even figure what they needed).

What a difference today.

It seems strange to think I had that Challenger when it was only sixteen years old and it totally felt like I was running a classic; and today I'm driving round in a 39 year old 'cuda and the feeling is pretty much the same.

I haven't made much progress have I - LOL

[cwestra]

Too right mate.  I got my first E-body in 1986 ('70 Challenger) and there was very little information or parts available over here in the UK and pretty much the only contact with the States was through the Summit and Year One catalogues.  A lot of nice cars got scrapped or messed up because no-one could get the parts (or even figure what they needed).

What a difference today.

It seems strange to think I had that Challenger when it was only sixteen years old and it totally felt like I was running a classic; and today I'm driving round in a 39 year old 'cuda and the feeling is pretty much the same.

I haven't made much progress have I - LOL

Yeah.  I refuse to grow up too.  Nothing wrong with that.

[nqkjw]

OK
I went through some old paperwork of mine to try and come up with some info that may help you.
I found a fax copy dated 19th Septempber 2005 with some measurements and numbers which I had sent to my Australian supplier so he could figure out why a std kit wouldn't suit.
The guts of it is that the output shaft is a smaller diameter on the T/A / AAR boxes.

Below is the info I sent him which may or may not help you but it was sufficient for him to figure out it was a close ratio box.

Part Nos (Casting Nos?)on the box are
G-2267262
R5
8139

Stamped near hoses - 2549

The shaft measures 28.51mm which is close enough to 1 1/8"

The OD of the existing seal is 39.39mm which is close enough to 1 9/16"

The part number on the inside of the existing seal is TT29248 - no brand name.

Hope this helps

Regards   Ken

[cwestra]

OK
I went through some old paperwork of mine to try and come up with some info that may help you.
I found a fax copy dated 19th Septempber 2005 with some measurements and numbers which I had sent to my Australian supplier so he could figure out why a std kit wouldn't suit.
The guts of it is that the output shaft is a smaller diameter on the T/A / AAR boxes.

Below is the info I sent him which may or may not help you but it was sufficient for him to figure out it was a close ratio box.

Hope this helps

Regards   Ken

Thanks for researching this, Ken.  I really appreciate it.  You don't recall if he was ever able to locate a kit for the FR box, do you?  I am hoping, at this point, that there is enough similarity between the 2 boxes that the seal(s) I need to stop my leaking are common.  Not sure what else I can do.  Thanks, again.

[nqkjw]

From memory I'm pretty sure it's just the lower seal.
I tried sourcing an aftermarket seal but all the local suppliers said it was an odd size and would be OEM only.

I found some more paperwork which came with the required parts dated 22nd September 2005.

Unfortuneately there is no part number on the paperwork but this is what it reads.

Lower Sector Seal and Dust Cover Valiant-Dodge 1/1/8" Shaft

Bear in mind the "valiant" reference could well be Aussie valiant.

[UKcuda]

I still think this is nothing to do with it being a fast ratio box.  It seems that up to 1972 all sector shafts are 1-1/8 and '73 onwards are 1-1/4.  I think the fast ratio box has a small shaft not because its a fast ratio box but because it's from 1970 or 1971.

The difference for different years is discussed here:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=116228

There's also reference to a seal kit for the box with a 1-1/8 shaft.

I'm guessing nqkjw got a 1973 and later kit which claimed it was for all years and so he thought it didn't fit because he had fast ratio, whereas in fact it didn't fit because it was the wrong kit for '72 and earlier.

[Strawdawg]

I still think this is nothing to do with it being a fast ratio box.  It seems that up to 1972 all sector shafts are 1-1/8 and '73 onwards are 1-1/4.  I think the fast ratio box has a small shaft not because its a fast ratio box but because it's from 1970 or 1971.

The difference for different years is discussed here:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=116228

There's also reference to a seal kit for the box with a 1-1/8 shaft.

I'm guessing nqkjw got a 1973 and later kit which claimed it was for all years and so he thought it didn't fit because he had fast ratio, whereas in fact it didn't fit because it was the wrong kit for '72 and earlier.

Everything, I have read, agrees with this

[Kapteenikosmos]

Everything, I have read, agrees with this

  There is no sense for yet another different sized output shaft for only the fast ratio box.

When I bought my rebuild kit from Rockauto I received a pre -73 kit and my box is from -73. All other seals did interchange except the lower shaft seal. That seal is pit special because it is a high pressure lip seal. The seal is quite beefy and there is also an extra metal support ring for the seal to keep it in place. Normal lip seal for rotating axle can withstand pressures of 15 psi or so without dramatic decrease in the lifetime.

[cwestra]

Got my seal kit in from Rock Auto.  Trying to get the steering coupler off the splined shaft but it seems to be really locked on there (yes, pin is out).  Any suggestions on how to work it loose?