Author Topic: 440 Cast Crank and Auto to Manual Conversion  (Read 21362 times)

Offline Cooter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1207
  • There goes the lone Challenger............
    • christinecarclub.com
Re: 440 Cast Crank and Auto to Manual Conversion
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2011 - 01:20:42 PM »
Wow, rebuilding the whole engine to get a forged crank simply to accomodate a 4 spd swap is a little extreme, dontcha think?

We all know forged cranks are better, but they may not necessarily be a requirement for this application. Nobody has even asked what the car is used for to see if the expense is justified. IMO, if this is simply a weekend cruiser, get an offset balanced flywheel, slap it on, and get on with the swap. Will it be perfect, no, but if we aren't dealing with a competition car, we may be splitting hairs that may not matter.

Ok, that takes care of the flywheel, but what are you gonna do about a pilot hole? I've seen a few cranks where "Elroy" tried to drill 'em in the car, it wasn't pretty either...Cranks gonna have to come out anyway..

All we are trying to do is help keep the amount of thinking to a minimum here. Afterall, if you put too much faith in someone's abilities, you are destined to be let down...Most can't even tell the difference between a forged crank and a cast, let alone figure out how to make an internal balance flywheel work with a cast crank..

When answering questions, I used to be the same way and figure if your messing with these cars, you at least know how to repair/work on 'em right? WRONG...Most are just "Cruisers" of these cars and have NO intention of working on one...All they prefer to do is just drive 'em...
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011 - 08:05:16 PM by Cooter »
1958 plymouth Belvedere 2dr hd top "Christine" [OO)====V====(OO]
1969 dodge Charger "General Lee"         [___|______I______|___]                        
1968 Dodge Dart 2dr sedan 505" Stroker    (O]=0==========0=[O)                
1970 Challenger R/T Clone "Kowalski Special"   (OO) [___________] (OO)




Offline Challenger III

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1290
Re: 440 Cast Crank and Auto to Manual Conversion
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2011 - 03:04:19 PM »
First off, A proud "Shade Tree Mechanic" here (or "Elroy" if you prefer  :rofl:). Yes, I have drilled a 383 cast crank, but Im a recovering crank driller. I started off with a 1/4" bit and a hand drill, and a steady, careful hand. The end of the crank shows you where center is. I gradually increased in bit size to slightly under the pilot bushing O.D. and used a reamer to make a press fit. Installed the bushing and an ex - balanced flywheel and away I went. I got lucky because the car performed fabulously!  :2thumbs:

Edit: Oh... the engine was still in the car when I did this!
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011 - 03:08:20 PM by Challenger III »
Mike    Yakima, Washington

Resto Thread:  http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=66668.0

Offline punisher72

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 293
  • 70Challenger 440 4 speed yeeehaaaaa!!!!!!!
Re: 440 Cast Crank and Auto to Manual Conversion
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2011 - 05:04:24 PM »
I didnt know that the cast crank was going to be a big problem with a manual?? I was going to take my 130 tooth flywheel off my 318 and have it drilled to suit the diagram in the 9th edition mopar chassis book!
Im hopefully going to the drags in 4 weeks and will be running 9" slicks.
My cam runs out at 6200 but power would maybe peak at 5600 to 5800 im guessing?
Will i be ok or should i run slippery tyres until i can afford the steel crank?
Im on a massive tight budget  :eek4:

Offline Challenger III

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1290
Re: 440 Cast Crank and Auto to Manual Conversion
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2011 - 06:54:40 PM »
I didnt know that the cast crank was going to be a big problem with a manual?? I was going to take my 130 tooth flywheel off my 318 and have it drilled to suit the diagram in the 9th edition mopar chassis book!
Im hopefully going to the drags in 4 weeks and will be running 9" slicks.
My cam runs out at 6200 but power would maybe peak at 5600 to 5800 im guessing?
Will i be ok or should i run slippery tyres until i can afford the steel crank?
Im on a massive tight budget  :eek4:


You should be O.K.  We're talking about converting from auto trans to manual if there is no provision for the input shaft / pilot bushing the back end of the crankshaft.  :thumbsup:
Mike    Yakima, Washington

Resto Thread:  http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=66668.0

Offline Cooter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1207
  • There goes the lone Challenger............
    • christinecarclub.com
Re: 440 Cast Crank and Auto to Manual Conversion
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2011 - 07:01:26 PM »
First off, you gotta watch drilling on flywheels to balance them per that Mopar Performance manual...I've sold more flywheels to "At home balance drillers" for this very reason. Had a guy on another forum Granted, he probably didn't do it correctly as some have had some success in doing this, but he finally had to just buy my 11" flywheel for a "truck" 360 Mopar. Yes, the cast crank 440, 400, and 360 engines unlike their "Brand X" counterparts, don't lend themsleves to having a manual trans installed behind them very easily..For every time I caution against this procedure, there's always someone that tells a story of their own success in doing it and "It wasn't that bad"...Well, I've found that if you try and tell someone to do something that only AFTER they have attempted it themselves numerous times, you kinda just offer the easiest solution to the problem rather than try and tell them the procedure anymore. Some people can get what is concieved as a "Very simple procedure" by one member here, and f*ck it up so bad that they tend to end up just going the easier route and buying the correct factory parts to make the procedure work without having to "Think", or "Do" anything that's concidered by some to be "Shade tree" or "Taboo"...Yes, I could drill a crank in the car for a 4 speed, but would I try and tell someone here to try it? NO...EXAMPLE: Reason being, I tried in vain to explain that all these "So called" Disc brake "Kits" you see advertised on E Pay for the 1957-58 Plymouth cars are nothing but Volare/Aspen set ups from the junkyard that have been cleaned up, new parts sourced from the local auto parts store (Calipers, hoses, etc), and being sold in "Kit" form for the "Plug and Play" croud, at huge money. However, the ads NEVER mention the geometry difference in using these set ups as I found out early on on my own car. I tried and tried to tell folks that all the "Kit" you are paying $250.00 for to adapt the A body 11" rotors and GM calipers to your '57-'58 Plymouth was  small "Adapter ring" machined on a lathe and a couple caliper brackets that anybody could make in their home garage. Now, the problem lies here. I got the "Well, not everybody has access to a lathe and such"...I did it on a damn brake lathe...You mean to tell me NONE of the guys had access to their local mechanics brake lathe sitting over in the corner of their shop NOT being used as most shops don't bother with turning rotors anymore cause it isn't worth it when NEW rotors are so cheap??


Bottom line? Yes, You COULD try and make the cast crank work with a straight gear, but just because another member has the "Shade tree" ability to make something work, doesn't mean ALL have it....

1958 plymouth Belvedere 2dr hd top "Christine" [OO)====V====(OO]
1969 dodge Charger "General Lee"         [___|______I______|___]                        
1968 Dodge Dart 2dr sedan 505" Stroker    (O]=0==========0=[O)                
1970 Challenger R/T Clone "Kowalski Special"   (OO) [___________] (OO)

Offline Challenger III

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1290
Re: 440 Cast Crank and Auto to Manual Conversion
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2011 - 07:43:18 PM »
 :iagree: You are exactly right my friend... I wasn't endorsing "Drill Motor" machine work, just telling a story about the days when I had more cojones and luck than smarts!  :lol:
Mike    Yakima, Washington

Resto Thread:  http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=66668.0

Offline punisher72

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 293
  • 70Challenger 440 4 speed yeeehaaaaa!!!!!!!
Re: 440 Cast Crank and Auto to Manual Conversion
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2011 - 09:13:21 PM »
Good post Cooter!
I just checked my cast crank and due to it being on an engine stand it was very hard to measure the rear.
It appears to have been drilled properly.
The od is1.820,.625 deep and centre hole is 1.125 deep from edge of crank. The very centre of the hole appears to be arond .750 diameter.
Im guessing its had a manual fitted up to it before???
Now with regards to the crank being able to handle a lot of abuse on the strip. Do you think the crank will hold up? Should i save my $$ and get a steel crank and basically rebuild my bottom end again? I want to do 2 days of solid 1/8 mile racing then once i recover from the financial side of all this i would like to pull the motor out and go with the steel crank.
Bottom line i need to be at this race meet as my car is on the flyer and im nearly out of time an $$$
Will my crank last for 2 days?
I dont want to end up with a rod out the side of my block when i couldve waited another month or so and rebuilt my motor.
The motor is all brand new never fired,hence the reason i would rather not strip it when all this money has been spent.
Any advice will be taken onboard wisely.
I just dont have a lot of time or money.
Thanks
Pete

Offline Cooter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1207
  • There goes the lone Challenger............
    • christinecarclub.com
Re: 440 Cast Crank and Auto to Manual Conversion
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2011 - 09:33:34 PM »
Pete, how do you know it is a cast crank?? Are there any pics of the engines crank without the oil pan on the engine? Maybe you already could very well have a steel crank and not know it....If it is in fact a cast crank and someone went though the effort to drill it for a pilot hole, you just might get out of this one yet.

However, if it IS a steel crank and you balance the flywheel for a cast crank, you'll be right back to square one wondering why your engine vibrates at around 2200 RPM...
1958 plymouth Belvedere 2dr hd top "Christine" [OO)====V====(OO]
1969 dodge Charger "General Lee"         [___|______I______|___]                        
1968 Dodge Dart 2dr sedan 505" Stroker    (O]=0==========0=[O)                
1970 Challenger R/T Clone "Kowalski Special"   (OO) [___________] (OO)

Offline punisher72

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 293
  • 70Challenger 440 4 speed yeeehaaaaa!!!!!!!
Re: 440 Cast Crank and Auto to Manual Conversion
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2011 - 09:39:55 PM »
I have a cast crank balancer on the front.

Offline punisher72

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 293
  • 70Challenger 440 4 speed yeeehaaaaa!!!!!!!
Re: 440 Cast Crank and Auto to Manual Conversion
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2011 - 10:03:11 PM »
Also the engine number on the top of the block has an E after the 440.
In the mopar chassis book,it says the 70 to 72 high performance and 440 6bbl engines used external balancing like the cast crank cousins. But these dont have the E stamped on the block!
How can i tell if i definately have a cast crank? Do i have to take the sump off?
The motor is on an engine stand atm so its not real hard to do.

Offline Cooter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1207
  • There goes the lone Challenger............
    • christinecarclub.com
Re: 440 Cast Crank and Auto to Manual Conversion
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2011 - 10:07:11 PM »
The 440-6 Pack engines used an EXTERNALLY balanced STEEL CRANK engine....That "E" doesn't stand for "External balance"....I'm thinkin' it stands for the model year instead of 1969 440, or some plant code....


I'm not saying this is what you have, but I have seen STEEL cranks from the factory, rebalanced with a cast crank balancer...You really need to check out what you have and post a picture of YOUR crank in order to find out FOR SURE before you make a costly mistake here..Yes, pull the pan off to be SURE, and snap a pic of the engine's crank....
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011 - 10:11:38 PM by Cooter »
1958 plymouth Belvedere 2dr hd top "Christine" [OO)====V====(OO]
1969 dodge Charger "General Lee"         [___|______I______|___]                        
1968 Dodge Dart 2dr sedan 505" Stroker    (O]=0==========0=[O)                
1970 Challenger R/T Clone "Kowalski Special"   (OO) [___________] (OO)

Offline punisher72

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 293
  • 70Challenger 440 4 speed yeeehaaaaa!!!!!!!
Re: 440 Cast Crank and Auto to Manual Conversion
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2011 - 10:11:08 PM »
Ok to be safe i will unbolt the sump and post a pic! I will do this right now,stay tuned  :2thumbs:

Offline punisher72

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 293
  • 70Challenger 440 4 speed yeeehaaaaa!!!!!!!
Re: 440 Cast Crank and Auto to Manual Conversion
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2011 - 10:52:22 PM »
looks cast. Is this the 1/2" pickup?

Offline Cooter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1207
  • There goes the lone Challenger............
    • christinecarclub.com
Re: 440 Cast Crank and Auto to Manual Conversion
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2011 - 11:39:02 PM »
That would appear to be a cast crank as I've never seen "440" Cast into a Forged unit...Hard to tell on the oil pick up, but look to be a stock 3/8" pick up...

I guess if the crank has a pilot hole drilled, all you need is the flywheel balanced for this unit...
1958 plymouth Belvedere 2dr hd top "Christine" [OO)====V====(OO]
1969 dodge Charger "General Lee"         [___|______I______|___]                        
1968 Dodge Dart 2dr sedan 505" Stroker    (O]=0==========0=[O)                
1970 Challenger R/T Clone "Kowalski Special"   (OO) [___________] (OO)

Offline punisher72

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 293
  • 70Challenger 440 4 speed yeeehaaaaa!!!!!!!
Re: 440 Cast Crank and Auto to Manual Conversion
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2011 - 11:51:38 PM »
I looked up the pipe size and its 3/8.....
The crank has the number 4027175-4.
I will try and match the number.
Cheers Cooter