Author Topic: Lifter rotating but goes bad in 20 minute cam break in  (Read 5512 times)

Offline femtnmax

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Lifter rotating but goes bad in 20 minute cam break in
« on: January 28, 2011 - 11:35:00 PM »
360 small block, Edel RPM heads with their single valve spring w/damper, Bullet cam AND Bullet lifters, cam duration at .050 lift = 224*, lift = 0.504 inch for 1.5:1 rocker ratio, but running 1.6 rocker ratio, cam broke in with Joe Gibbs break in oil.
The photo shows what happened to one lifter. I was surprised that a rotating lifter would totally wear out in 20 minutes.  To me suggests poor material hardness on the lifter face or cam lobe??
I have another cam, Lunati Voodoo cam ground for Mopar lifter diameter, but with my 1.6 rocker ratio am I just going to wipe it out too??  Because of the higer rocker ratio should I back off on the cam profile and install a cam with say 0.500 lift with 1.6 rocker(so about 0.470 lift with 1.5 rocker) ??
Any comments or experience welcome.   
Phil




Offline Topcat

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Re: Lifter rotating but goes bad in 20 minute cam break in
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2011 - 12:02:57 AM »
If you're running a solid cam get EDM lifters.
They have a very small laser hole on the bottom to the lifter allowing oil.

Sorry to hear about your misfortune.
Mike, Fremont, CA.


Offline Chryco Psycho

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Re: Lifter rotating but goes bad in 20 minute cam break in
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2011 - 12:13:35 AM »
oil is important for sure , running it at 1800 RPM for 20 min is advised , if the cam or lifters has bad metalurgy nothing may help

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Offline mojavered

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Re: Lifter rotating but goes bad in 20 minute cam break in
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2011 - 01:02:37 AM »
Thats a bummer, I feel your pain.  I just had to change out some Isky lifters.  They were practically brand new too.  I went with Crower this time (hydraulic).  Hopefully these last.
Jason

Offline Aussie Challenger

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Re: Lifter rotating but goes bad in 20 minute cam break in
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2011 - 02:27:18 AM »
We seem to be hearing this happening more and more these days, are there some lifters or cams that have been failing more than others given that most know to use zddp oil and cam break in lube.   :popcorn:
Dave

Offline spitnl

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Re: Lifter rotating but goes bad in 20 minute cam break in
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2011 - 03:59:21 AM »
Have you got a picture shot from a different angle, it looks like the tappet has been riding the edge of the tappet.
If you have an incorrectly indexed tappet bore it will wear out any flat tappet cam in no time.
How were the tappets of the old camshaft?

Offline Cooter

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Re: Lifter rotating but goes bad in 20 minute cam break in
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2011 - 10:07:21 PM »
There's been a few runs in the lifter department lately that are not up to par with the metalurgy..This is a known problem, as only around two (2) manufacturers actually make the liflters..Some survive, some don't...I sure hope mine live..I assume you were running the "Break-in" oil with loads of ZDDP in it?
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Offline moper

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Re: Lifter rotating but goes bad in 20 minute cam break in
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2011 - 09:45:46 AM »
How easy was the engine to get fired? Please be specific on what you did. How many times was it rotated by hand? Was it preoild with the starter? Did it fire of immediately of were there issues with it firing? The lifter bore machining on most factory blocks (all manufacturers) are usually terrible compared to blueprint spec. Once the cam world started getting into faster rates of lift and especially the "Mopar specific" fastest rates the issues with lifter angle in relation to the camshaft becomes MUCH more critical, and it's not something that is easy to measure, or commonly measured. It is possible you just have a bad block and you need to tone down the camshaft, or bush the lifter bores which corrects the relationship. I would not question Bullet's quality bit that possibility of a defective lifter or cam always exists. I'd just be more inclined to blame the block because Bullet parts are really that good and consistant. So before we jump to conclusions... How easy did the firing go?

Offline femtnmax

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Re: Lifter rotating but goes bad in 20 minute cam break in
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2011 - 09:04:29 PM »
How easy was the engine to get fired? Please be specific on what you did.
Yes the engine was first fired with Joe Gibbs break in oil, supposed to be good stuff.
I had initially primed the oil system with electric drill.  Then when setting the rocker lash there was lots of hand turning to adjust all 16.  Maybe I should set rockers in firing order, rather than down one row then the other.  This would have less crank rotations.
I plan on driving this car, and not just to shows.  It has to survive typical daily use, be able to run long distance highway use, and not break down leaving a $$ car sitting along the road.  At some point I start to question the long term street reliability of a truly high performance build because the engine has to idle at stop signs, putt around town, etc all of which doesn't throw much oil onto the cam.
When turning over the 904 profile cam, the lobe ramps were so steep it appeared most of the moly grease was being shaved off the ramps by the edge of the lifters.  I know the lifter edges don't touch, but you get the idea of the fast 904 ramp rate.  I thought of going to solid flat tappet with lifter face oiling thru the lifter, but from what I've found the .05 durations are too aggressive for my street build...

For engine start, the engine fired instantly, so I was pleased with that, then ran @ 2000rpm for a full 20 minutes, but...I had pulled the pan a couple months ago because of a dipstick conflict with the windage scraper.  When doing this a LOT of oil drained out of the oil pickup tube. I didn't want to lay on top of the fender/new paint to sight down the distrubutor hole to pull/replace the oil pump drive....So after reassembly I did spin the engine with starter to reprime, maybe 15 seconds, but that may have been all it took since the engine sat so long between assembly and starting.  So your probably right, I killed myself at this point. 
I am still surprised the rotating lifter would wear down. The lifter had to be rotating during starter cranking as there is no sign otherwise.  Maybe during this time the hardened surface was reduced/damaged.   
Along the lines of poor block machining, I am "toning down" the cam, still 1.6 rocker ratio and same 0.05 duration but no 904 ramp rate and less max lift to reduce spring load.  I'll save the Engle K56 for the future.  Maybe the Bullet 904 profile cam would have been happier without the 1.6 rocker ratio stacked on top of everthing else.
Last time I spoke with Lunati tech, they were a little hesitant to run 904 ramp rates for long term street use, they suggested dropping to Ford ramp rates, still better than Chevy.
Glad to hear you think well of Bullet products.  They have a nice selection of cams, etc.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011 - 10:08:48 AM by femtnmax »
Phil

Offline one54dodgetruck

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Re: Lifter rotating but goes bad in 20 minute cam break in
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2011 - 09:30:27 PM »
i had the same problem with a crane cam on a 318 it was a metal problem. the parts shop replaced the cam and lifters but no gasket kit  :banghead: had some buddys come over and they brought beer when i was putting it back together... well long story short wasent paying attention when installing my cam gear and had it on the wrong mark, which pushed some pushrods through the rockers and bent the valves....
andrew
73 challenger rally 340

Offline femtnmax

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Re: Lifter rotating but goes bad in 20 minute cam break in
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2011 - 09:58:13 AM »
had some buddys come over and they brought beer when i was putting it back together...
I added some more detail to my previous post.
I used to do alot of auto repair work on the side. Rebuilt a 304 v8 in a jeep when outside temps were pushing -36F.  The jeep owners dad kept bringing out umpteen rounds of hot buttered rums.  The "solvent tank" was an old turkey pan filled with gas, it was on the floor across from the wood stove.  Foolish to say the least.   A number of folks showed up when I first fired the engine, wondering if it would come upart...but it ran great.  I guess I was lucky that time.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011 - 10:11:33 AM by femtnmax »
Phil

Offline heminut

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Re: Lifter rotating but goes bad in 20 minute cam break in
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2011 - 11:41:11 AM »
  The "solvent tank" was an old turkey pan filled with gas, it was on the floor across from the wood stove.  Foolish to say the least.   

You lead a charmed life my friend! :grinyes:
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Offline brads70

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Re: Lifter rotating but goes bad in 20 minute cam break in
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2011 - 06:30:02 PM »
I added some more detail to my previous post.
I used to do alot of auto repair work on the side. Rebuilt a 304 v8 in a jeep when outside temps were pushing -36F.  The jeep owners dad kept bringing out umpteen rounds of hot buttered rums.  The "solvent tank" was an old turkey pan filled with gas, it was on the floor across from the wood stove.  Foolish to say the least.   A number of folks showed up when I first fired the engine, wondering if it would come upart...but it ran great.  I guess I was lucky that time.


 :smilielol: sounds like an episode of "RED GREEN"   :roflsmiley:
Brad
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Offline jimynick

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Re: Lifter rotating but goes bad in 20 minute cam break in
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2011 - 07:31:40 PM »
"Remember, if the girls don't find ya handsome, they should find ya handy"- pass the duct tape there Brad, will ya? :2thumbs:

Offline femtnmax

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Re: Lifter rotating but goes bad in 20 minute cam break in
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2011 - 11:03:59 PM »
pass the duct tape there Brad, will ya?
Glad you liked the story.  The jeep owners dad is a WWII vet, sniper in the Philippines and Japan mainland on occupation..  He pretty old now, but used to be a crack shot...Drop an antelope at full run (50mph) with one shot was no problem.  He would always test us, can we hit that mudhole at 600 yards.  His son and I would shoot and shoot, getting closer and closer.  He would grab my -06, stand there offhand and place the first shot right next to the mudhole.  Hands the gun back and says:  yes, its sighted in correctly.  Then he would say we each only have 1 bullet opening day....who comes back with a critter first.  He always did.
Phil