Author Topic: Wheel Hop Problem  (Read 6078 times)

Offline brads70

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Re: Wheel Hop Problem
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2011 - 09:49:26 PM »


 :smilielol:  Sorry man I couldn't resist!  :grinyes:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0




Offline Ronk

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Re: Wheel Hop Problem
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2011 - 11:50:51 PM »
RonK - sounds like the shims may have too much angle to them.  What is the shim thickness on the "thin" end of the shim?   I'm asking because the 3/8 inch thick at the center sounds like a lot.
Do you know the angle of the shim.
If I try and figure out the angle of the shim, here is what I have:
Assume the shim is 4 inches long.
Looking at the shim from the side, thin edge to the left, thick edge to the right.  Half way along the shim at the center hole the shim is 3/8 inch thick (thats .375 inch), and the length from center hole to thin edge is 1/2 of 4 inches=2 inches.
 
Assuming the shim is very thin at the "thin" edge, and 3/8 thick at the center hole in the shim.
So the Tangent of the angle formed is .375/2=.1875
The inverse function of tangent is Arctangent.  Solving for angle "theta" = arctangent .1875

Now go to internet, handy arctangent calculator:
http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/math/Arctan_Calculator.htm

The answer is 10.6 degrees.  This is WAY too much angle.


After I posted this, I thought they might be the wrong degree shim too.  I ended up looking up the part number online.  The feller sold me 6* shims instead of the 4* ones that I asked for.  Had to take them back and exchange them.  The 4* shims are much thinner and after setting them on top of my old springs, there is plenty of the locator button sticking out to engage the spring mount.  I think this all teaches me to look up my own dang parts.  Lol

Thanks for doing up the math for me.  I was trying to think along those lines, but my brain starts to hurt when I think of equations and imaginary numbers.   ;)

Do some research to find what correct angle should be, although 2 degrees difference between driveshaft and pinion does not sound like too far off.

From what I've read up on here, I  believe I should be shooting for anywhere from 4-7* down angle on the pinion so when power gets back to the diff the front nose of the pinion rises up into alignment with the driveshaft.  I think what is happening now is with the pinion angle being 0*, when I stomp on it the angle rises up too far and binds the u-joint causing the violent hopping.  I have one of those adjustable snubbers on order that has the adjusting screw on it so I can limit the amount of rise on the diff to not get into a binding problem with the u-joint and put some more downward force on the axle. 
If the car is has an auto transmission, see if you can powerbrake it, and have a friend off to the side of the car and take a picture of driveshaft/pinion gear...is pinion now pointing parallel with driveshaft, or maybe pointing above the driveshaft? 

Got a manual car...I wish I could test it like that.  If would make me feel better about seeing actually what it is doing.  Great idea though!

Brads70...awesome pic!  I had totally forgot about that character.  Made me laugh!

Offline Ronk

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Re: Wheel Hop Problem
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2011 - 09:17:49 PM »
Well I added the 4* shims and the nose of the pinion now points down a hair under 5*.  I took the car out and it still has a bit of hop.  I ordered the screw-type adjustable snubber and it came in yesterday.  The new snubber doesn't fit between the top of the diff and the body of the car. >:(  Called Mancini racing and they said they had never ever heard of one of those snubbers not fitting under the cars.  I'm at a loss over what to do now.  Anyone else ever run into this before?  (I saw one of those snubbers for sale a few years ago in the classifieds for the same reason of not fitting...)

Offline brads70

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Re: Wheel Hop Problem
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2011 - 09:39:27 PM »
Humm? Can you post any pictures? Of the installed springs? Rear end? wheel bearings good? I'm getting stumped too? :clueless:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline Ronk

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Re: Wheel Hop Problem
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2011 - 04:34:44 PM »
Here is pictures of how the tire fits in the fender and of the snubber I took off compared to the new adjustable one.  Do you think the car is just sitting too low with the new XHD springs?  I can take pictures of how the snubber fits, but it is just about a 1/2" to shy of fitting.  If thats the case the car would have to sit up another 1 1/2" to get it to fit and have enough room to work.




Offline 422STROKER

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Re: Wheel Hop Problem
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2011 - 07:06:26 PM »
I have the xhd's, 4degree shim and the MP adj snubber, seems to work well for me.  I do have an extra clamp on the front segment of both sides though. :dunno:

Tom


Tom
12.77 @ 108.87 15" Street Drag radial tires 3.23 gear

Offline Ronk

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Re: Wheel Hop Problem
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2011 - 07:57:28 PM »
I have the xhd's, 4degree shim and the MP adj snubber, seems to work well for me.  I do have an extra clamp on the front segment of both sides though. :dunno:

Tom

That is the same setup that I have right now, except for that brand snubber and clamps.  XHDs and 4 degree shim.  For whatever reason...not enough room for the screw type adjuster. 

Offline 422STROKER

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Re: Wheel Hop Problem
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2011 - 08:54:31 PM »
I have the snubber with the adjustment pin, it needed to be shortened to make it work.

Tom

I have KYB's too fwiw.

I looked around on the net and some say the clamps help a bunch, pretty cheap at <20 bucks to try.
Tom
12.77 @ 108.87 15" Street Drag radial tires 3.23 gear

Offline Ronk

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Re: Wheel Hop Problem
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2011 - 12:53:07 PM »
Just got off the phone with the MP tech line.  They recommended one of two things...send the screw adjustable one back to Mancini Racing (I have a return auth. number) and buy the MP snubber and chop it down.  Or buy the Super Stock springs and that will give me plenty of clearance to add the snubber. 

I've thought of a third option, and that is to measure out everything and pick up some steel box channel and build spacers to get me up far enough that the snubber gets a chance to work before the axle hop sets in.  Thoughts?

Offline Strawdawg

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Re: Wheel Hop Problem
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2011 - 10:38:11 PM »
Ride height looks good to me.  A built up snubber works just as well as any other.

FWIW, the Mopar Chassis book says a snubber is not essential on an automatic car, but, can be used...it suggests 1-2" clearance when used...again, for an automatic.  Sticks show 0-1/2".....

This is in relation to a strip type car..a street car needs the freedom to allow the suspension to work over bumps and such.

Offline HP2

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Re: Wheel Hop Problem
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2011 - 12:07:09 PM »
Wheel hop is what results when the tire and the spring fight for control of the axle wrap. The hop results from either the tire being unable to hold the torque or the spring being unable to hold the torque and as they try to grip, the axle wraps up then springs back very rapidly after overriding that grip which creates the hop. Other items like pinion angle or snubber height can add to or hide the problem, but it still simply comes down to control of the tire and/or  the spring. So, either you need better gripping tires or springs better able to resist the torque.  With a BFG, you should be able to annihilate them, so I'd say some spring tuning is in order.  So riddle me this, does the rear of the car lift when you drop the hammer? It should. If it isn't, you have a spring problem.

To tune the springs, take off the rear most clamp. This allows the rear of the pack to soften up and reduces the force that section of spring can provide to snap the axle back. If you still have some hop, than add a clamp to the front section between the factory clamp and the axle.  Repeat these steps until  the problem goes away. Doing these steps should better control the axle motion without the need to add other traction devices.

FWIW, adjustable snubbers came out of use on drag strip cars, which typically sat higher than road going cars because of the SSp spring packs used on them. Hence the reason your stock snubber is so much shorter. It also was primarily used on stick cars because of the violence associated with a manual trans launch. A properly set up drag race mopar leaf spring set up usually has so much body seperation, a snubber is virtually worthless. On a street car, the snubber ios more of an overload insurance item than an full blown performance option. With two large buddies in back, the springs were compromised enough that the snubber was added to prevent over stressing springs during "spirited" driving with said passengers and creating warranty issues.

Offline Ronk

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Re: Wheel Hop Problem
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2011 - 07:36:13 PM »
HP2- I will give that a shot too.  I had originally thought that the springs could have been the culprit, that was why I had replaced them with the XHD springs.  When that didn't solve the problem, I thought I might have had another issue.  On the installed springs, there is one clamp on the front and two on the back.  Just so I don't mess anything up, will I still need to have one clamp on the back or will the springs be fine without any clamps on the back?

Offline mopar12372

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Re: Wheel Hop Problem
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2011 - 08:40:01 PM »
remove the clamp closest to the rear if there are 2 per spring (rear) .clamp the front if not already clamped . the xtra heavy duity springs have more springs and clamps . its up to you to dial it in . factory springs sagged really bad over a short period of time. i wouldnt even try to run superstock springs on the street (i know people do but thats a drag only option) imop[ , theres alot that goes into installing them too . when i bought them a while back they where  only made  with the 20in front section . ebody is 22in to pin
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RESTO PICTURES
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=71096.30

Offline Ronk

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Re: Wheel Hop Problem
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2011 - 10:52:18 PM »
The clamps on the front of the spring are just the ticket!  Finally found some 2 1/2" wide square u-bolts and clamped the top three springs together on the front of the springs. That worked like gangbusters!  Now I have no issues frying those BFGs at will with no wheel hop.  Soon as I wear them out, I will find a better tire to put on the back.  I noticed no change in how the car rides either. 

I also built a spacer out of 3 1/2" square tubing to mount the pinion snubber on instead of cutting up a MP adjustable one to make it fit.  I'll have to see how that will work out.  It's set 1" away from the floor right now.  I'll run it for awhile and modify as needed.   

Thanks again everyone for all the help and advice!  I am happy that evil demon has been wrangled!  :bananasmi :bananasmi

Offline HP2

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Re: Wheel Hop Problem
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2011 - 09:57:00 AM »
Glad to hear you got it whipped!