Author Topic: 440 with 727 on C-list  (Read 4086 times)

Offline EMCD

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440 with 727 on C-list
« on: February 21, 2011 - 12:59:14 PM »
I'm pretty sure my '72 340 is tired and was thinking about dropping in a BB. There is a '73 cuda on C-list that hasn't moved in a while and i pinged the owner on how much just for the 440 and the tranny. It's all been rebuilt recently and he/she want $5k for the motor and tranny. Is that a good deal? If i currently have the 727 in my cuda, can i just swap the block? does it even make sense to keep my old 340 and just rebuild it? Isn't hard to get any really good power out of the '72 blocks w/o dropping a ton into the motor?




Offline brads70

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Re: 440 with 727 on C-list
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2011 - 04:29:30 PM »
I'm pretty sure my '72 340 is tired and was thinking about dropping in a BB. There is a '73 cuda on C-list that hasn't moved in a while and i pinged the owner on how much just for the 440 and the tranny. It's all been rebuilt recently and he/she want $5k for the motor and tranny. Is that a good deal? If i currently have the 727 in my cuda, can i just swap the block? does it even make sense to keep my old 340 and just rebuild it? Isn't hard to get any really good power out of the '72 blocks w/o dropping a ton into the motor?

Nope BB and SB tranny bolt patterns are different. 5K seems alot to me? It would sure have to be some kinda engine/tranny to be worth that used? Same old story ....rebuild means different thinks to different people!
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline Super Blue 72

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Re: 440 with 727 on C-list
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2011 - 10:05:26 AM »
Nope BB and SB tranny bolt patterns are different. 5K seems alot to me? It would sure have to be some kinda engine/tranny to be worth that used? Same old story ....rebuild means different thinks to different people!

 :iagree: I agree about the tranny situation and the price.  When was it rebuilt?  How many miles since the rebuild?  Just curious, if they want $5k for the drivetrain, how much for the whole car? 

Depending on what you want, there is the age old debate of big block vs small block.  From my understanding, all the 340 blocks (without going into the T/A blocks) were pretty much the same.  Starting in 1972 they dropped the compression and changed the carb to a Thermoquad, maybe also changed the cam profile, and started using electronic ignition (a plus IMO).  The 340 is a decent engine, some claim will out run an equally prepped 383 due to the weight difference.  Due to the lower weight it i good for handling purposes.  340's are hard to come by vs a 440.  :2cents:  440 will make more power all things being equal.
1972 Dodge Challenger Rallye 340, AT, Code TB3=Super Blue, SBD=8/17/1971.  Yes, a Rallye without the fender louvers from the factory because of the body side molding option.

Pic #2 and 3 of my ARII 1/24 scale model car 

Phil in New England-Massachusetts  Always thank God for what you have!

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/456046/1972-dodge-challenger

Offline Jesus H Chrysler

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Re: 440 with 727 on C-list
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2011 - 12:01:47 PM »
For 5 grand you can rebuild your 340 and have a killer small block car that handles.  5 grand for a used engine and tranny better come with lots and lots of reciepts showing a recent build plus hear it run and maybe some time slips or dyno sheets.  Used/rebuildable 440's can be found under a grand if you're patient.

Also don't discount the cost of conversion. The engine/tranny is only a piece of the pie.  When I swapped over my car I didn't think of that.  I had to buy new torsion bars, headers, exhaust, engine harness, motor mounts, radiator, pulleys and brackets etc.  And now my car is nose heavy compared to what it was before.  It all depends on how bad you want a 440 in your car. 

The 340 was known as the "Baby Hemi" back in the day since it was a high performance only engine.  You couldn't get a 340 2bbl for example.  And they rev higher than most other similar engines which helped it earn it's reputation as a big block hunter.  It boils down to your vision for the car.  Do you want a big block Cuda and have the bank account to pull it off?  Or throw your resources at a 340 which shouldn't disappoint you at all.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2011 - 12:09:22 PM by Jesus H Chrysler »
Yes I own a 1972 Dodge Challenger Convertible T/A S/E with a 440 Six Pak. Can it get any more wrong?

{OO /===\ OO}
(OO==> <==OO)



Greg, in the middle of MA has:
1970 Dodge Coronet 440 "Zom Bee"
1972 Dodge Challenger convertible 440 5 speed.
1973 Dodge Challenger 318 "Brown Bomber"
2012 Dodge Challenger R/T Classic Blackberry Pearl.
2001 Jeep Wrangler locked, lifted and lighted.  "Jeep is a registered trademark of Chrysler Corporation"

Offline EMCD

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Re: 440 with 727 on C-list
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2011 - 11:20:50 PM »
I'm looking to make as much power as i can with the smallest investment. My car is now running, but it's super slow. The acceleration of the line is better on my 6k lbs land cruiser. The old carb and intake are all cummed up with carbon, according to the mechanic that helped me get it running. The tranny shifts a bit hard, especailly after I let up off the gas when i was getting on it. I'm taking it in to get the tranny and rear end serviced. The upper and lower control arm and the tie rod bushings are shot and my steering feels like it has a ton of play. would replacing the carb and intake make it feel like a totally different car?

Offline Cooter

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Re: 440 with 727 on C-list
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2011 - 08:22:49 AM »
I'm looking to make as much power as i can with the smallest investment. My car is now running, but it's super slow. The acceleration of the line is better on my 6k lbs land cruiser. The old carb and intake are all cummed up with carbon, according to the mechanic that helped me get it running. The tranny shifts a bit hard, especailly after I let up off the gas when i was getting on it. I'm taking it in to get the tranny and rear end serviced. The upper and lower control arm and the tie rod bushings are shot and my steering feels like it has a ton of play. would replacing the carb and intake make it feel like a totally different car?

Small money? Looking for Big power? 440 is in your future then...It would take WAY more money to get a 340 to run with a properly done 440....100 C.I. is ALOT to try and make up with compression/cam/heads...Sell that 340 to somebody that has to have it, and build yourself a stroker 500 C.I. 440..There are motors on here puttin' out over 600 HP and 650 Ft. Lbs. of torque..A 340 at those numbers will NOT be streetable..I mean afterall, there's a reason Chrysler came out with a 440 C.I. engine...Hint: It wasn't for Fuel mileage...
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011 - 08:29:19 AM by Cooter »
1958 plymouth Belvedere 2dr hd top "Christine" [OO)====V====(OO]
1969 dodge Charger "General Lee"         [___|______I______|___]                        
1968 Dodge Dart 2dr sedan 505" Stroker    (O]=0==========0=[O)                
1970 Challenger R/T Clone "Kowalski Special"   (OO) [___________] (OO)

Offline Jesus H Chrysler

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Re: 440 with 727 on C-list
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2011 - 08:49:33 AM »
Ok think big picture and work backwards.  Do you want a race car?  Do you want to keep the car original? (I'm guessing not due to the 440 idea)  Do you really want "MAXIMUM POWER" regardless of the cost?  We would all say throw a crate Hemi in it and call it done, but most people don't have 15-20 grand lying around to throw at their cars.  You are at the critical stage of your build.  Now is when you decide if you want to build a big block car or a small block car.  Your budget comes in to play here, but ultimately you don't want to build a car you'll end up regretting later.

On the one hand, you can get good power and performance out of the 340 you have there, assuming it's in good condition.  If money is a factor this is where I would concentrate my efforts.  For the 5 grand budget of buying the 440 you could get a compression check of your 340.  If it's good then simply a cam, lifters, springs, intake, carb and headers will wake up your engine.  all for around a grand or so.  Then factor in another $500 to sort out your front end problems and maybe $1500-2000 for a top notch transmission and you're well on your way to having legendary muscle car performance with the car you already have.  The upside is this can all be done in stages as weekend projects so your car isn't down for any significant time. And you save $$$   :money:

Compare with my ordeal putting the 440 in my car.  I had the engine and transmission already so that's a wash.  I had to get new torsion bars and rear springs for a few hundred dollars, new radiator for around 500, Schumacher mounts for another hundred or so, Seek out and find a new driveshaft (904-727 probably doesn't apply to you) then mount it all up.  Score proper big block pulleys, fan shroud, throttle bracket, wiring harness etc.  Little stuff adds up.  THEN I had to spend the same upgrade money on the engine I just suggested to you: Cam, lifters, springs, intake, carb and headers.  And then my tranny went hence the same 1500-2000 to put in a properly rebuilt unit.  The whole conversion took me nearly 2 months mostly because of seeking out the little things I thought I had or found out I needed later.  The end result is I have a 440 in my Challenger and spent a ton of money.  That didn't even include the front end rebuild to make the car driveable again.

If the appeal of a 440 is something you really want I say go for it, just be prepared for the project you're going to undertake.  I suggest you either try to talk this guy down or shop around and find yourself a cheaper 440 though.  I'd hate to see you blow your budget and have an engine taking up space in your garage you can't do anything with.  I applaud your method of being proactive and calling people on their ads and asking questions.  Keep it up.  You may score an old C-body or something nice and cheap like I did.
Yes I own a 1972 Dodge Challenger Convertible T/A S/E with a 440 Six Pak. Can it get any more wrong?

{OO /===\ OO}
(OO==> <==OO)



Greg, in the middle of MA has:
1970 Dodge Coronet 440 "Zom Bee"
1972 Dodge Challenger convertible 440 5 speed.
1973 Dodge Challenger 318 "Brown Bomber"
2012 Dodge Challenger R/T Classic Blackberry Pearl.
2001 Jeep Wrangler locked, lifted and lighted.  "Jeep is a registered trademark of Chrysler Corporation"

Offline Cooter

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Re: 440 with 727 on C-list
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2011 - 05:05:43 PM »
 All of this of course will depend on how much of this you can do yourself to save $$....If you have to pay someone to do everything for you, then you better stick with that little 340 and just cruise it as is. However, if you can dump your own BB in your car and get it running for minimal $$, then a BB is a way better option than pouring money in a small block...Some people say swap T-bars, I don't buy it, as I've been swapping BB 440's into cars for a long time and never found a need to road race any of 'em. But, I understand if you wish to try and carve canyons with it after the swap and need the BB T-bars...As for the rest? It's as simple as asking about what you'll need and get the parts gathered BEFORE you swap the engine/trans. The Rad. will need to be upgraded even if you stick with the 340, as after it's hopped up, it WILL need more cooling than a stock rad. will provide. As for a rebuild on a 727, I've built my own for years with only $600.00 total investment. If you just have to have that $1800.00 TCI "Streetfighter" trans then, yes it will cost you. Forget the "Rebuilt 440" and buy one needing a rebuild, preferably running though and rebuild it yourself. You never know what's inside or done to an engine until you fire it up and find out that rebuild consisted of a rattle can paint job.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011 - 05:19:08 PM by Cooter »
1958 plymouth Belvedere 2dr hd top "Christine" [OO)====V====(OO]
1969 dodge Charger "General Lee"         [___|______I______|___]                        
1968 Dodge Dart 2dr sedan 505" Stroker    (O]=0==========0=[O)                
1970 Challenger R/T Clone "Kowalski Special"   (OO) [___________] (OO)

Offline jimynick

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Re: 440 with 727 on C-list
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2011 - 05:27:08 PM »
EMCD, both Cooter and JHC have good points, but there may be a third way. I recently priced a Eagle stroker kit for a 340 to 408" with forged pistons and rods, cast crank, rings and bearings for $1100. Basic machining around here runs approx. $500 on the block and as Cooter says, put it together yourself. It'll make all the power any sane man needs, fit right back in the hole it came out of, bolt to the same trans and put a smile on your face at the same time as it saves you money. $5000 should more than cover the above and trans and still leave you with a couple of bucks to fill the tank a few times! Good luck!

Offline Super Blue 72

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Re: 440 with 727 on C-list
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2011 - 08:33:47 PM »
EMCD, both Cooter and JHC have good points, but there may be a third way. I recently priced a Eagle stroker kit for a 340 to 408" with forged pistons and rods, cast crank, rings and bearings for $1100. Basic machining around here runs approx. $500 on the block and as Cooter says, put it together yourself. It'll make all the power any sane man needs, fit right back in the hole it came out of, bolt to the same trans and put a smile on your face at the same time as it saves you money. $5000 should more than cover the above and trans and still leave you with a couple of bucks to fill the tank a few times! Good luck!

72challengerorange did a 422" stroker...might want to talk with him.  :2cents:
1972 Dodge Challenger Rallye 340, AT, Code TB3=Super Blue, SBD=8/17/1971.  Yes, a Rallye without the fender louvers from the factory because of the body side molding option.

Pic #2 and 3 of my ARII 1/24 scale model car 

Phil in New England-Massachusetts  Always thank God for what you have!

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/456046/1972-dodge-challenger

Offline brads70

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Re: 440 with 727 on C-list
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2011 - 09:50:39 PM »
72challengerorange did a 422" stroker...might want to talk with him.  :2cents:
And it pulls like a freight train!  :grinyes: Tom took me for a ride! :2thumbs:
Brad
1970 Challenger 451stroker/4L60 auto OD
Barrie,Ontario,Canada
Proud to own one of the best cars ever made!!!!!

My restoration thread 
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=59072.0
 My handling upgrade post
http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=73985.0

Offline EMCD

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Re: 440 with 727 on C-list
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2011 - 11:48:18 PM »
what could i expect from a cam, lifter, carb and intake upgrade? would it take the 340 to 300hp?

Offline Milkmann

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Re: 440 with 727 on C-list
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2011 - 09:43:20 PM »
My 1974 Challenger has a 73 340 filled with the stock internals from a 1968 auto-trans-spec engine. It still has the original 904 tranny that was bolted behind the 318 in the car when it left the factory with 3.23 gears in the rear end.  I just bought the car last summer, when I first got the car home it was awful slow. Ended up taking it to a shop that does machine work, they found ZERO compression on one cylinder. Turns out I had one badly burnt exhaust valve, peeled the heads off and found that another intake valve had a broken spring(so it wouldn't seal decent at any higher RPM). Ended up replacing all the valves, springs, and keepers. Found that I have the "X" heads, with 2.02" valves.
Got it home, having compression made an incredible difference. Burnouts are no problem whatsoever, now. And it is still a stock inside, stock appearing engine.
I would do a thorough overhaul on the 340 you have with quality parts and have the machine work done at a good shop. I think you'll have all the power you need and if you decide you need more you'll have a nice 340 that you won't have any problem selling-just save your receipts.

Another way to possibly go is find a warmed-over small block for less $$. Here's a 360 on our local Craigslist-
http://appleton.craigslist.org/pts/2238812592.html

If you really, really have to have a 440, here's one with a 727 attached for $400-
http://appleton.craigslist.org/pts/2237247934.html
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011 - 09:50:08 PM by Milkmann »

Offline Super Blue 72

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Re: 440 with 727 on C-list
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2011 - 10:48:34 PM »
what could i expect from a cam, lifter, carb and intake upgrade? would it take the 340 to 300hp?

One of the down sides of a post '71 340 is the compression.  It's something like 8.5:1.  If you still have the stock compression I would think of upping it to at least 9-9.5:1 and should still run on pump gas.

I have no actual numbers to say so but my guess is that with those items replaced (including upping the stock compression.), 300hp, depending on the parts chosen, should not be a problem.  I would even venture a guess that 350 hp wouldn't be an issue and be streetable.


Maybe someone else will chime in on a 340's potential...  :1zhelp:
1972 Dodge Challenger Rallye 340, AT, Code TB3=Super Blue, SBD=8/17/1971.  Yes, a Rallye without the fender louvers from the factory because of the body side molding option.

Pic #2 and 3 of my ARII 1/24 scale model car 

Phil in New England-Massachusetts  Always thank God for what you have!

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/456046/1972-dodge-challenger

Offline mopar12372

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Re: 440 with 727 on C-list
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2011 - 12:44:15 AM »
please do us all a favor and not compare a rb/b engine to an  a engine.( please ) if you add aluminum heads to a rb/b engine it will lighten up on the front then what will be said ? big blocks are junk they are slow and are only used in snow plows ... hahahahaha
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